[Christopher VaughnStrever]

On the idea of a weak ale drank consistently....

I for one drink Guinness Foreign Extra - A strong Ale. Consider all of the light beers of today, people drink that at bars and at home for hours and they don't get drunk until they have drank enough of it. If I drank Guinness for two straight hours, lol, I would be wasted beyond my dreams. But, if I drank Light Beers all day long, I would get tipsy at best. And then into the evening I would consume a bit more then normal and get pretty drunk by the end of the night.

so while a tolerance is built up, the inherent over the limit and people could get as drunk as they wanted.

thats my idea any ways,

[Jean-Carle Hudon]

Hello Christopher,
Hope you had a great time verifying your alcohol consumption theory over the Holiday period, I did...
But more seriously, your beer of choice is a 7.5%, and most of your american lights ( Coors, miller and whatever else we see on TV at football games) are all about 4%. So if you swill down two lights in the same time that you enjoy a good 7.5% stout, your alcohol intake is roughly the same, so it comes down to personal preferences and rate of consumption.
Personal subjective perceptions ( Believe Me Judge, I know when I'm drunk and I wasn't. You see Judge, I'm big boned and have years of practice...'') don't add up to much when measuring whether a person is under the influence or not.

[Gary Teuscher]

[Christopher VaughnStrever]

Then I vote we have small to big guys with varying tolerance and we perform a review of how all the subjects had to perform one test of longsword techniques sober, and then a second test of the same material when they are intoxicated. I will volunteer my time and money for this as long as we can get it on video.

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Gary Teuscher]

[James Anderson III]

[D. Phillip Caron]

There is a topic here on William Marshal. It touches on the night life activities of some of these Knightly Gentlemen. It is well worth watching on its own merit. In light of recent comments here it might be worth watching for that alone.

[Stephen Renico]

From the books I've read on the Crusades and the Siege of Malta, I always had the impression that knights/soldiers didn't drink plain water often (perhaps out of fear of contamination), but drank watered wine, instead. I can only think of fighting all day, losing moisture by sweating in armor in the Levantine desert, and then (ahem) rehydrating with wine.

It wouldn't surprise me if it were proven that most of western civilization was built by men in their cups.

[D. Phillip Caron]

It is now being said that civilization was started to provide a steady supply of grain for making beer. Then soldier types to protect it.

[Randall Moffett]

Who is saying that? I'd love some more info on this. Early civilizations were founded upon grain and its uses because it was a dependable (as far as anything was then) food source that enabled a surplus instead of just getting by or starving not to make beer, which comes later on all accounts than its staple uses. That said they seem to figure brewing out early and we see it tie into much of their society but that it was formed for this and soldiers to protect it seems a bit far flung, maybe not as far as aliens building the pyramids but since the dates don't line up highly unlikely. I am interested in if who ever is saying it is reputable as it will only be months before I hear it from one of my students and I like to be prepared.

I personally think civilization was created to provide us with taxes

RPM

[D. Phillip Caron]

If I could spell "archaeologist" I could answer the question.

[Timo Nieminen]

It's been around for many years. Solomon Katz was pushing this idea at least a decade ago. Other people who've written on this are Mary Voigt and Patrick McGovern. McGovern's "Uncorking the Past" is a good modern popular book which does mention this, especially in relation to maize domestication. Specifically, maize was domesticated long before it was used for grain - the original use being the sweet juice, for fermentation.

There are variants for the domestication and exploitation of wheat and barley. Some propose that domestication and agriculture was to provide a sufficient supply for brewing (after using wild grains for food and brewing), others that exploitation of wild grains was also for brewing, with significant use as non-beer food coming later.

The earliest stuff on this that I know of is:

Braidwood, R. J., Sauer, J.D., Helbaek, H., Mangelsdorf, P.C., Cutler, H.C., Coon, C.S., Linton, R., Steward J. & Oppenheim, A.L., 1953, Symposium: did man once live by beer alone? American Anthropologist 55: 515-26.

Katz, S. H. & Voigt, M. M., 1986, Bread and beer: the early use of cereals in the human diet, Expedition 28:23-34.

[Randall Moffett]

Timo,

Interesting and odd but funny at the same time. I have to say that I have never heard any one seriously say civilizations were created for stable brewing.... that said I have a hard time thinking it is correct either but should look at their articles first. Though to be fair the last ten years I have largely been studying medieval Europe so things like this are easy to miss under the radar. Far before the first civilizations were formed man was eating wild grains. Once they can raise and harvest their own grains for stable food it allows more or less everything needed for civilization. Seems to suit Occams razor and better we have strong evidence for the status quo on civilization.

And as for needing soldiers..... some of the earliest finds we have of man show violence between man was occurring. Seems they needed soldiers likely to stay alive.

That said people say lots of things. I'll have to hit the articles and take a look what evidence they are using.

Thanks for the article info Timo!


RPM

[Gary Teuscher]

One thing in relation to the use of grains for alcohol that suprised me - based on estimations of how much ale was drunk by the general poplace, ale or other beverages provided around 10-15% of the caloric needs of a family per day.

The only negative here - it seems as though roughly about 40% of the caloric content of barley for instance is extracted and transferred to the ale - in other words it takes about 2.5 bushels of barley to make a "bushels worth" of calories for ale.

Rather inefficient it seems for a not overly efficient agrarian economy to begin with. However, the "spent" grain still had uses, livestock feed was one common use.

[Matthew P. Adams]

There is a documentary on netflix titled "How Beer Saved the World"

Liner notes:

"Did you know that beer was critical to the birth of civilization? That's right -- beer. Scientists and historians line up to tell the amazing, untold story of how beer helped create maths, poetry, Pyramids, modern medicine, labor laws and America."

I haven't seen it yet, but it might have some information pertinent to the discussion.

[Ted Kokx]

when you think about it beer was the primary drink of earlier cultures and on into the middle ages as alot of the water was not fit to drink, even children drank beer and ale and workers were paid in ale at times in some cultures. beer and ale were also one of the most common ways to get grain into your diet for it was easier to store beer for long periods than it was grain or bread.

[Gary Teuscher]