| Author |
Message |
JE Sarge
Industry Professional
|
 Posted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 10:05 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Torsten F.H. Wilke wrote: | Hey, this thread got me wondering...
All issues and predispositions aside, would you rather be given a comparable MRL sword or one from Darksword armoury if you found yourself in a very dire combat situation on which your life depended, and you were afforded no other choices? Which particular weapon would you actually choose? Could it be from another comparable maker?
I was trying to imagine this from a rank and file foot-soldier's perspective, not a pedagogical one. |
Without question, if given the choice between the discontinued Windlass messer or any one of their falchions (current or discontinued) - I would choose the DSA messer I designed. The thing is built like a tank with a beefy full tang and hot peened pommel cap. It's a suprisingly stout blade with decent balance. No Windlass model, past or present, is as hearty as this thing is.
Naturally, I have a ton of other swords in my collection which I would rather wield in the aformentioned situation - but in this example, I'd take the Darksword over Windlass without thinking about it.
J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com
"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
|
|
  |
 |
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
|
| Posted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 11:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| W. Knight wrote: | I hate to question the top moderator of the forum so, (and my knowledge is much less than yours), so I hope I will be forgiven for asking--what was wrong with the description you quoted above? The sword is the "Medieval Knight Bastard Hand and a Half Sword" and it does indeed have a wheel pommel and slightly curved quillons. To this extent at least, this sword follows the appearance of its historical predecessors, and this is all the description indicated. Unless the issue is the part about what type of swords were used during the 100 years war? I'm not familiar with this era. What exactly is wrong with them describing the sword pictured there, in the way they described it? 
All manufacturers usually say something about how their sword follows such and such a typical style or appearance, according to the time period from which their replica is being created from... |
I'm not the "top moderator" on the forum. I am the owner of this web site.
I did not say that there is anything wrong with the description on their site. Do not put words into my mouth. I said very clearly that I disagreed with your statement:
| Quote: | | I think this is a great point. After all, I am aware of absolutely no claims on the part of Darksword Armory that their swords are historical in design |
I said:
| Quote: | | My take-away from the text on their site is exactly opposite of your own. Not only are they placing their swords in the context of a period of time, a region, or what have you, they are in fact basing their products on specific originals. |
To be even more clear, I'm indicating that the company does ground their sword designs into a historical context.
It's a simple statement countering your broad comment. I've made no further commentary on the subject and have no judgement of the maker regarding right or wrong.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
|
|
  |
|
Paul Hansen
|
| Posted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 11:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | Not only are they placing their swords in the context of a period of time, a region, or what have you, they are in fact basing their products on specific originals. |
As does ColdSteel, for some reason... 
What makes things good, in my opinion, is attention to (historical) detail. That costs money. If you don't have that money, then the choice of the customer is what goes out the window first...
But yeah... If you want to copy the sword of Svante Nilsson Sture, which is very complex and was probably also very expensive when it was new, then it's likely that a LOT goes out the window...
Even the Albion version probably has some things that are not 100% correct, but at least it comes pretty close...
|
|
|
|
|
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
|
| Posted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 11:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Paul Hansen wrote: | | Nathan Robinson wrote: | | Not only are they placing their swords in the context of a period of time, a region, or what have you, they are in fact basing their products on specific originals. |
As does ColdSteel, for some reason...
What makes things good, in my opinion, is attention to (historical) detail. That costs money. If you don't have that money, then the choice of the customer is what goes out the window first...
But yeah... If you want to copy the sword of Svante Nilsson Sture, which is very complex and was probably also very expensive when it was new, then it's likely that a LOT goes out the window...
Even the Albion version probably has some things that are not 100% correct, but at least it comes pretty close... |
Yep. I agree on all accounts.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
|
|
|
|
|
Roger Hooper
|
| Posted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 11:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Torsten F.H. Wilke wrote: | Hey, this thread got me wondering...
All issues and predispositions aside, would you rather be given a comparable MRL sword or one from Darksword armoury if you found yourself in a very dire combat situation on which your life depended, and you were afforded no other choices? Which particular weapon would you actually choose? Could it be from another comparable maker?
I was trying to imagine this from a rank and file foot-soldier's perspective, not a pedagogical one. |
A more interesting comparison would be between a Darksword and a Hanwei/Tinker. Both are inexpensive, though the H/T is a little cheaper.
Darkswords are generally durable bashers, heavier and less lively because of the distal taper problem. (and FWIW, they're often ugly and ungainly)
The Hanwei/Tinkers have significant distal taper, are lighter and easier to wield, and are closer to real historical swords. Compromises in functionality and appearance have surely been made that result in the lower price. Unlike Darkswords, if you abuse them, they will likely break.
IMO, if two soldiers of equal abililty squared off, one with a Darksword, the other with a H/T, the latter would prevail by having a faster sword that gets there first.
|
|
|
|
|
W. Knight
|
| Posted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 11:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Nathan Robinson wrote: |
I'm not the "top moderator" on the forum. I am the owner of this web site.
I did not say that there is anything wrong with the description on their site. Do not put words into my mouth. I said very clearly that I disagreed with your statement:
|
Mr. Robinson,
Really what I meant was that I knew you were the one in charge of this site, and though you are owner, I think you fill the spot of one of the moderators as well? If not, sorry for the mistake...thanks for clarification.
Also, I did not mean to put words in your mouth. You did not say anything was wrong with the description Darksword gave, but I felt it was being used as an example of your statement about them basing their products on specific originals. I just could not see how this was an example of that, and so I assumed that you must see something wrong with it or you would not have used it as an example. But, like I say, my question was aimed at understanding what was wrong with the statement, and perhaps I should have instead asked first if you did find something wrong with it. Then again, I thought your quoting it implied explicitly that you did. Forgive me again...I am a little confused here...
But it is of no great importance really, I will say if I put words into your mouth or misread you or anything it was very unintentional. 
Last edited by W. Knight on Fri 04 Nov, 2011 12:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tod Glenn
|
| Posted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 11:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think it rather unfair to compare a $300 DSA sword with an Albion model that cost 3x as much. As far as copying designs, this is so common in the cutlery word I don't see why people get upset. How many knifemakers basically copy Loveless designs? Indeed, as mentioned, some of the designs by the big makers are copies of orginals. So is a copy of a copy really that big a deal?
DSA does have an issue with weight and balance. They are overbuilt for WMA practice and this is a legitimate critique. I can't speak to their history, but having dealt with them recently, I found their service excellent and was very pleased with the sword I bought from them - realizing that it is a $300 sword with all that implies. As a sword builder myself, I am amazed they can build these swords in NA and sell them at this price.
Not everyone can afford to spend $800 plus for a sword. DSA fills a niche.
|
|
|
|
|
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
|
| Posted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 1:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Tod Glenn wrote: | | As far as copying designs, this is so common in the cutlery word I don't see why people get upset. How many knifemakers basically copy Loveless designs? Indeed, as mentioned, some of the designs by the big makers are copies of orginals. So is a copy of a copy really that big a deal? |
Why is it a big deal? Because copying the intellectual property of others is illegal regardless of anybody's opinion on the matter.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
|
|
|
|
|
Torsten F.H. Wilke
Location: Irvine Spectrum, CA Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 250
|
| Posted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 3:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Roger Hooper wrote: | | IMO, if two soldiers of equal abililty squared off, one with a Darksword, the other with a H/T, the latter would prevail by having a faster sword that gets there first. |
Very interesting point! (pun not withstanding  )
By way of extrapolation, would that then imply that a foil might dispatch either sooner? Btw, does anybody have an opinion on DSA foils/rapiers?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tod Glenn
|
| Posted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 4:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Nathan Robinson wrote: |
Why is it a big deal? Because copying the intellectual property of others is illegal regardless of anybody's opinion on the matter. |
OK, we are possibly overstretching 'intellectual property' right now. What about the 'intellectual property rights' of the original maker who was copied or inspired the work. Coke and Pepsi both make a carbonated, sugarey caffeine based drink Did the latter violate the formers intellectual rights? I think not, and the courts agree. This whole IP thing has gotten ridiculous. There are a limited number of ways to build a sword, and they've all probably been done centuries before. With the exception of certain fantasy pieces, I have no doubt one could take any maker's sword and find previous swords that all exhibited those features in one way or another. Assembling a new sword by combining designs from several others does not create new IP. Copying historical designs does not assign them to you exclusively.
Look at the gun market, and how many products are copied, and how few suits there are. The last major one between Glock and S&W involved blatant copying of a patented mechanism. But building a similar weapon, with similar looks and even similar functioning, is normal market practice.
Now take the athletic shoe market. How many designs are basically copies with slight cosmetic difference? In fact you could draw this analogy out to almost every major product sold.
The very basis of capitalism is building a similar product for less, or a better product for the same price. If there is really intellectual property (patents, trademarks or copyrights) the holder is free to sue. AFAIK, that hasn't happened.
No offense, but it really sounds like some people have a personal axe to grind. I am far more interested in objective evaluation of things like weight, balance, quality of build, customer service, etc. Just a cursory search of the archoves show that there are certain people on this site who continuously badmouth DSA while at the same time admitting they haven't looked at their products in years. That doesn't strike me as very objective.
For the record, and disclosing my own experience, I bought a DSA Gothic two hander for the express purpose of comparing it to my own work. I wanted to do some test to destruction and didn't want to spend a ton of money on an A&A or Albion that I was going to destroy anyway. Do I think it's a superb example of sword making? No, certainly. Is it a good value for the money spent? Certainly, particularly compared to many other swords I bought for destructive testing that are in the same price range.
Your mileage may vary
|
|
|
|
|
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
|
| Posted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 5:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Tod Glenn wrote: | | OK, we are possibly overstretching 'intellectual property' right now. What about the 'intellectual property rights' of the original maker who was copied or inspired the work. |
It's not being overstretched. The original makers are not afforded such rights under law.
| Quote: | | Coke and Pepsi both make a carbonated, sugarey caffeine based drink Did the latter violate the formers intellectual rights? I think not, and the courts agree. This whole IP thing has gotten ridiculous. There are a limited number of ways to build a sword, and they've all probably been done centuries before. With the exception of certain fantasy pieces, I have no doubt one could take any maker's sword and find previous swords that all exhibited those features in one way or another. Assembling a new sword by combining designs from several others does not create new IP. Copying historical designs does not assign them to you exclusively. |
Nowhere is it claimed that copying the same original design is a violation of any other maker's IP rights. It's been said that copying one maker's designs and specific and unique interpretations is a violation of IP rights. The law agrees with this.
I disagree with you on many levels and the laws governing such things do as well. Your opinion of the laws being ridiculous is not something I'll debate with you, nor will I express my own opinion on the matter. I encourage people who are interested in the subject of IP protection to study the subject elsehwere and not on this site. I think it would be very surprising to many members here.
| Quote: | | No offense, but it really sounds like some people have a personal axe to grind. I am far more interested in objective evaluation of things like weight, balance, quality of build, customer service, etc. Just a cursory search of the archoves show that there are certain people on this site who continuously badmouth DSA while at the same time admitting they haven't looked at their products in years. That doesn't strike me as very objective. |
To be clear about myself, I don't have a personal axe to grind. I've expressed no personal opinions in this topic on the matter. If you were to actually insinuate otherwise, I would in fact be offended. Further, if I were to see individual's crusades against any maker (personal axes to grind) I'd stop them. This site isn't the place for such nonsense.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
|
|
|
|
|
|
D. S. Smith
Location: Central CA Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 236
|
| Posted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 6:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Tod Glenn wrote: | | As far as copying designs, this is so common in the cutlery word I don't see why people get upset. |
It's not only common in the cutlery world. If you want to be absolutely shocked, check out the two competing companies Eagle Industries and Blackhawk. They are both 'tactical nylon" manufacturers of vests, holsters, belts, pouches, etc, for military/ law enforcment. One of them (the latter) has copied almost stitch for stitch the entire product line of the other. It actually has gotten to the point that is it so blatant that litterally nobody cares anymore. (Except me, I buy Eagle products ). Of course the apathy is probably also due to the fact that both companies products are in such high demand that even between the two of them they can't keep up with the market.
But I also agree with Nathan, the fact it is accepted does not make it right or ethical.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Austin D.G. Hill
|
| Posted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 6:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
i personally own a darksword armoury black knight. it is a bit heavy, that is true, but it can handle abuses that would break many other swords. i do think it is too heavy though at 3 pounds, yet as i said it is EXTREMELY durable. i ordered mine unsharpened, but i still would not use it in reenactment or sparring as it still has a very functional tip. if you wanted you could grind down the edges, this would make it suitable for this and make it lighter. they do have a few swords that are not too heavy, for example their 11th century viking brown gripped sword is 2 pounds 6 ounces with a 5 3/4 POB on KOA which is lighter and has a closer balance than the VA Hedemark (both of these are excellent swords for cutting). still a bit blade heavy, but a step in a good direction. weight could be usefull if you want to cut things. if you want a tough sword and could do some work on it i think it could work.
AUSTIN DANIEL GLENN HILL
|
|
|
|
|
|
P. Cha
|
| Posted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 6:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Okay a few points.
To the orginal posters question...DSA as made right now is completely UNSAFE for armored combat without modifications. They have 1mm edges which is WAY too thin, they are stuper stiff, have very sharp points and are over weight and badly balanced...this all combined is very VERY bad for freesparring...even in armor. They are good as stage steel if you absolutely need a stage steel sword that looks real with the sharp tips and can take a LOT of abuse...but even then the edge should be ground down to 2mm...and GREAT care must be taken in the fight scene. But for a free spar...yeah just don't do it.
To DSA's infringement of other craftsmen's IP. You know, a LOT can be said about modifications made to lower production costs when based on the same historical model...like say both the albion prince and DSA sword having 8 facets on the pommel over 10 like the orginal. You have to give a bit of slack in a lot of cases...that said, Eyal has publicly admited that he stole other people's IP. One of his production sword by his own words was from a custom job that a customer wanted based on another swordmaker's design. Now doing a one off for a customer who requests it is pretty grey area to begin with but I can forgive that. The moment he mass produced it, he crossed the line. No more grey area.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joe Fults
|
| Posted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 9:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| W. Knight wrote: | | Also, the OP was asking if these swords are suitable for armored combat (e.g. hitting a sword against a plate armored opponent) and expresses concerns about damaging his opponents armor . Would an Albion or an even better sword (all much more historical) be at all appropriate for such activities???? |
Late to the reply but, unless we're talking about one of the blunted practice blades, I'd be inclined to argue that all "swords" are inappropriate for this activity. One mistake with a blunt and somebody gets hurt. A mistake with a sharp or semi sharp blade only magnifies and amplifies the risks and consequences.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joe Fults
|
| Posted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 9:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| W. Knight wrote: | | I suppose it just puzzles me how Darksword is accused of downright deception, when so many other companies seem to do the same thing. |
I think Darksword is "accused" in this thread, because Darksword is the topic of discussion in this thread. Not all of the other companies you mention. That being the case, shouldn't we expect Darksword to be the central topic? Perhaps this has been brewing for a while and you've merely found a proverbial straw? 
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
Last edited by Joe Fults on Fri 04 Nov, 2011 10:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joe Fults
|
| Posted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 9:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| W. Knight wrote: | | ...so I admit I am puzzled by how they can be so unscrupulous as many suggest. But I also concede that my experience with them is limited, and much of what I know is mere heresay, so I cannot claim to have a definitive answer to the question, by any means... |
If you take time to think about this, therein most likely lies your answer. 
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
Last edited by Joe Fults on Fri 04 Nov, 2011 10:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joe Fults
|
| Posted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 10:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Torsten F.H. Wilke wrote: | | All issues and predispositions aside, would you rather be given a comparable MRL sword or one from Darksword armoury if you found yourself in a very dire combat situation on which your life depended, and you were afforded no other choices? Which particular weapon would you actually choose? Could it be from another comparable maker? |
Well...just for fun...I'd really hope not to be in that situation...certainly not if these were really my only choices. I'd probably trust one Windlass sword as my choice in your construct and that would be this one:
http://www.myArmoury.com/review_ws_typeiv.html
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
Last edited by Joe Fults on Fri 04 Nov, 2011 10:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joe Fults
|
| Posted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 10:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| JE Sarge wrote: | | This was more of a step reaching out to the community than any other sword manufacturer has done in recent memory. |
Certainly rings true enough.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joe Fults
|
| Posted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 10:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| D. S. Smith wrote: | | Tod Glenn wrote: | | As far as copying designs, this is so common in the cutlery word I don't see why people get upset. |
It's not only common in the cutlery world. If you want to be absolutely shocked, check out the two competing companies Eagle Industries and Blackhawk. They are both 'tactical nylon" manufacturers of vests, holsters, belts, pouches, etc, for military/ law enforcment. One of them (the latter) has copied almost stitch for stitch the entire product line of the other. It actually has gotten to the point that is it so blatant that litterally nobody cares anymore. (Except me, I buy Eagle products ). Of course the apathy is probably also due to the fact that both companies products are in such high demand that even between the two of them they can't keep up with the market.
But I also agree with Nathan, the fact it is accepted does not make it right or ethical. |
Did they copy each other or did both just outsource production and design to the point that they only "brand" a common OEM part? I'm not familiar with either company and thus have no idea what they do, but branding an OEM part made in Taiwan, China or another low cost export country is pretty common. Its also pretty common to have six different guys importing said OEM part, branding it, and trying to claim they have some secret sauce that nobody else does. 
At least until said OEM manufacturer figures out a way to dis-intermediate.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum
|
This is a standard topic