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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Mon 17 Oct, 2011 10:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I want to echo what Greg said. There's this big meme in the community that states that Meyer is Bolognese. The similarities between the two styles happen to be the same similarities that you see in just about every system, whereas the Bolognese have some marked differences.

I think the problem is that people know Meyer studied with Italians, and that the Bolognese school happens to be one of the few 16th century schools that most modern practitioners have familiarity with, so many modern practitioners jump to conclusions based on limited data. There are a few people I've discussed with who've read some of the Florentine texts who say that Meyer's work is even more similar to that than Bolognese.

But back to the original question: The Bolognese material is probably the most accessible material as far as those particular polearms. If you want secondary source interpretations, SPADA had the article on the Partizan that Tom Leoni and Steve Reich did, and Western Martial Arts Illustrated had a good halberd introduction that Tom wrote.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


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Jon Wolfe




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PostPosted: Mon 17 Oct, 2011 10:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oops, got the Italian masters confused. Blush I wasn't really saying there's any proven connection, just that there were potentially some similarities, given the similarities between Meyer's Rappier book, to Bolognese material for the single sword, and given that Meyer would transpose methods and techniques from some of his weapons to others in his work, there is the potential that Meyer may have "German-ized" some of the Bolognese polearm material as well.

Meyer's work is the primary source that use for my studies, but wanting to branch-out into the Bolognese material, and nearly at once noticed the similarities when it came to Meyer's Rappier and the Bolognese methods for the single sword. At some point, I'd like to study both systems in-depth, in tandem, and do the same for the dagger and polearm material as well.
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Greg Mele
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PostPosted: Mon 17 Oct, 2011 10:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jon Wolfe wrote:
Oops, got the Italian masters confused. Blush I wasn't really saying there's any proven connection, just that there were potentially some similarities, given the similarities between Meyer's Rappier book, to Bolognese material for the single sword, and given that Meyer would transpose methods and techniques from some of his weapons to others in his work, there is the potential that Meyer may have "German-ized" some of the Bolognese polearm material as well.



I understand, and wasn't taking exception, just adding clarification as to why I think the polearm material is really more firmly in the German tradition. As I said, I think the methodology shows an "Italianate" influence, and the rappir is clearly a hybrid of Liechtenauer and Italian fencing, IMO, we just need to clarify what that means. I see Meyer as a reasonable additional data source for the Bolognese, but as Bill is saying, that is because it is the style we know best from 16th c Italy.

Regardless, and a bit off-topic, Meyer has one advantage over the Bolognese, IMO, and that is that his work really IS self-contained. Having none of the other German material, you still have a full, and readily usable, curriculum for 16th c swordsmanship. For Baloney, I think Manciolino is the most accessible and concise on its own terms, but Marozzo gives us the spadone, dagger, dagger and cloak and unarmed vs dagger. Unfortunately it is a repertoire book, there is virtually no theory or exposition. The Anonymous makes Marozzo accessible and adds to the sword alone and spadone, plus adds poleaxe and sword and gauntlet, while Viggiani is the best snap-shot of body mechanics and the discussion of tempo. Finally, Dall Aggochie gives us the sword and dagger and sword alone in its full flowering, plus mounted lance and takes Viggiani's one-trick pony and expands it into a great snapshot of a down-and-dirty, how to learn the basics fast.

Greg Mele
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Steve Hick




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PostPosted: Fri 21 Oct, 2011 9:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jon Wolfe wrote:


SNIP
There is some interesting research that points to Meyer at one time being a classmate of Marozzo. Also, when one compares Meyer's rappier techniques to those of the single sword in several of the best know Bolognese manuals, there are many strong similarities to be found. Additionally, given the strong amounts of cross-pollination that Meyer uses for the instruction of the different weapons covered in his work, I would say that his staff weapons chapter is at least potentially "Italian" influenced.


I think that Gelli has him as a student of Viggiani, and that individual a student of Marozzo. Without attribution.

Steve

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Greg Mele
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PostPosted: Mon 24 Oct, 2011 12:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Close Steve, he says that Meyer and Viggiani were "con-discepolo" of Marozzo, without a shred of attribution, as typical of Gelli.
Greg Mele
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