Talhoffer's Sword -- myArmoury.com

Sean Flynt · Posted: Mon 07 Mar, 2011 11:01 am Post subject: Talhoffer's Sword

Moving on from Memling to Talhoffer....The image below is a portrait of Talhoffer from the 1467 printing. In this image he holds a single-hand sword (possibly hand/half) like those shown in that edition's section on equestrian combat. I have some bits that I think could work well for this but I want to get your opinions on the specs.

It looks to me like this is a narrow Type XVIII blade with a Type T5 pommel and cross of Style 2. Single hand or short-ish bastard sword? Comparison of his right hand to the grip length suggests that this is a bastard sword, but I haven't examined the biometrics for the blade length.

It's a very practical and attractive sword. I have a faceted T5 and Style 2 cross that appear to work perfectly with a Hanwei-Tinker sharp bastard sword blade, but I want to make sure it's an historically plausible match. Talhoffer's seems like a good fit.

Thoughts?

Luka Borscak · Posted: Mon 07 Mar, 2011 11:08 am Post subject:

Type T pommel should be quite small or it would be too heavy for a relatively light bastard blade I think... If the balance would be ok it would certainly be an attractive sword.

Sean Flynt · Posted: Mon 07 Mar, 2011 11:18 am Post subject:

This is my first design, based more on the swords in the equestrian section, some of which appear to be single-hand. The sword shown with Talhoffer himself seems to be a bit larger, based only on biometric observations. Based on my own proportions, that blade would be somewhere around 32-34". That would put the sword at about 41-43" overall. Reasonable?

Marc Bloom · Posted: Mon 07 Mar, 2011 11:37 am Post subject:

Sean, the size and fittings are fine. That sword size would be perfect for the unarmored fights. The issue is the balance and ergonomics. Does the guard fit well? Is the guard to long for you to use comfortably? Does this pommel put the balance where you want it?

Let us know how it works out.

Sean Flynt · Posted: Mon 07 Mar, 2011 11:59 am Post subject:

Johan Gemvik · Posted: Mon 07 Mar, 2011 3:11 pm Post subject:

Your sword model looks great!
However, I note a couple of things that differ from the illustration. The sword Talhoffer holds looks like a hollow diamond blade and the pommel looks pear shaped round without facets. I can't really see what your blade geometry is in the photo as it's too bright to make out, but if it's modeled off a Hanwei Tinker, aren't these all made with a central fuller? Albion might sell hollow diamond blades though now that they take orders for bare blades.

I also have a question about the stated POB. Do you mean 3-4 inches below the crossguard, as in on to the gavel, or 3-4 inches from the crossguard on to the blade?

Sean Flynt · Posted: Mon 07 Mar, 2011 6:02 pm Post subject:

All but one of the H-T blades are fullered. The one I have is the unfullered diamond section Type XVIII. It might qualify as XVIIId. Very nice blade, and seems to be similar to the single-hand blades in this edition of Talhoffer. Any project inspired by them must rely on some educated guesswork. The sword shown with Talhoffer could be hollow ground or flat-sided, but it resembles many of the Dordogne blades, which are not hollow ground.

Johan Gemvik · Posted: Thu 10 Mar, 2011 3:22 am Post subject:

Thanks for the info, hadn't seen those. Good to know for future projects.

Yes, diamond regardless if hollow or not seems right for this.

Sean Flynt · Posted: Thu 02 Jun, 2011 9:05 am Post subject:

I'm still pondering this project. I have what I think is a more appropriate blade. It's from a Windlass Munich sword, inspired by the Stantler field swords of ca. 1600. These blades are, in essence, medieval Type XV blades with a ricasso (though the Windlass misses that mark). I now think that more closely resembles Talhoffer's equestrian swords and improves the proportions of this project. I'll still have to taper the lower .25 of the blade to create a more acute point.

This shows the bits together as they currently fit and without regard to proportion. The pommel will have to come down about 1" and I'll be taking an equivalent amount of blade to accommodate that change (or I might shorten the pommel slightly). I'll remove the pommel facets and round the ends of the cross. The grip will be very simple, tapered and with a chappe. I'll make a simple scabbard and suspension to match Talhoffer's. Should be a good sword for use with a buckler.

Scott Woodruff · Posted: Thu 02 Jun, 2011 11:10 am Post subject:

Yes, that second blade looks like a much better match. How stiff is it? I find the HT blades to be super whippy. I have always loved the Talhoffer single-handers and similar swords. Sean, I must say, you have impeccable taste in swords.

Sean Flynt · Posted: Thu 02 Jun, 2011 11:16 am Post subject:

Scott Woodruff · Posted: Thu 02 Jun, 2011 11:32 am Post subject:

Very interesting. I might reconsider getting an HT bastard sword blade. I got an HT longsword bade a while back and was very disappointed by its extreme whippiness. Maybe I got a lemon. Or maybe you and I have very different ideas about how stiff is stiff. I like 'em really stiff. Of course, if I find a blade to be too whippy, I have found that shortening the blade by as little as 5cm can work wonders.

Shahril Dzulkifli · Posted: Fri 03 Jun, 2011 5:39 pm Post subject: Talhoffer's Sword

Sean's Talhoffer sword looks impressive, I must say.

Gary B. Ledford · Posted: Sat 11 Jun, 2011 11:23 am Post subject:

Scott Woodruff · Posted: Sun 12 Jun, 2011 3:50 pm Post subject:

It isn't sag I worry about, that is entirely apropriate for certain types of blades. (My heavily modified HT Great Sword sags alot but is a great cutter.) It is lack of sufficient stiffness in a blade that is obviously geared toward thrusting. I love some of the other HT blades I have gotten, but the HT longsword blade was neither a cutter nor a thruster, neither fish nor fowl. Compared to my Albion type XVI, it was WAY less stiff, and the Albion is really not that stiff for thrusting though it cuts with great authority. I think part of the problem with mine was a fuller that was cut way too deep at the distal end, creating a distinct weak spot near the middle of the blade. The heat-treat was excellent and after removing the last 14" or so it made a wicked short-sword blade.

Gary B. Ledford · Posted: Sun 12 Jun, 2011 11:48 pm Post subject:

Ahh, yes Hanwei is actually more consistant with their heat treatment than with their grinds. Iv e seen the same sword handle different from blade to blade due to minor differences in grind.

Eric W. Norenberg · Posted: Mon 13 Jun, 2011 10:05 am Post subject:

Hi All,
Scott, would you be willing to post either of your modded H/T projects in a new thread? I for one love to see the "home brew" stuff. Always more interesting than "off-the-shelf"...

For what it is worth (at the risk of further derailing Sean's thread here), which Albion XVI do you have? There is a fair difference (as I understand them) between the Crecy and the Brescia, for example, both arguably XVIa 's. I have the H/T Longsword too, and I have no complaints regarding stiffness/thrust-ability - for that particular sword's intended use (meaning, what Tinker designed the thing to do). I have no idea how it compares to the Crecy or any of Albion's single hand XVI 's, 'tho.

Excelsior!

P.S.: Sean, project looks good, looking forward to more. What became of the hilt from the Munich?

Charles Richmond · Posted: Mon 13 Jun, 2011 2:11 pm Post subject:

Sean Flynt · Posted: Tue 14 Jun, 2011 6:47 am Post subject:

Scott Woodruff · Posted: Tue 14 Jun, 2011 11:34 am Post subject:

Sean, I hope you don't mind another off-topic post. Eric, my Albion is a "type XVI" bare blade. Really, it is more of a XVIa and seems very similar to the Crecy except for a shorter fuller. I will post my blades in a seperate thread when I get a chance. I am mostly finished, I am just stuck on the pommels.