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William P
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 Posted: Mon 25 Jul, 2011 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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according to sources the pembridge helm was associated with sir richard pembridge who died in 1375. it may have been used b him in battle. though it weighs 7 pounds im not sure whether this is too heavy for combat or not.
http://gallery.the-exiles.org/view_photo.php?...amp;id=aak
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jul, 2011 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Quarantillo wrote: | Woo! ok, serious response time!
And my Teutonic knight kit will cover ALOT of time ground. From the late 13th to late 14th cent.
I plan to get a Helm that is Pembridge in it's styling. Yes, yes, too early for 13th cent, I'll be wearing my coif with that version.
And no great crest for me. I had the hood sized to wear over the helm. I will have decor, in the form of a brass cross in the center, and it being painted black and white. Per Pale.
And the Mantle and Surcote are all linen. Cotton isn't period, and wool is bloody hot. 
And I like bascinates and all, but they're a bit too limited. Only 14th cent. And I'm a great helm kinda guy. Bucket-head looks all the way!  |
Don't forget the Cervelière over or under the coif that was often worn without the Great Helm with the Great Helm put on when battle was imminent and mostly for mounted combat I think.
By the way a close fitting Cervelière looks rather cool with maille coif over it, and very comfortable and not top heavy like many other types of helms.
If you want to try this combination make sure that your great helm is big enough to fit over the Cervelière + coif +padded arming cap.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Nathan Quarantillo
Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 279
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jul, 2011 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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I won't be using an exact replica of the Pembridge. The Helm I'm looking at has features based off of it to keep it 14th century. And the cervelliere look is nice, but I think I'll make it a later improvement purchase...
"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
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William P
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| Posted: Tue 26 Jul, 2011 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| Sander Marechal wrote: | | William P wrote: | | that said. historical or no. i justcant imagine teutonic knights without that helm. its as iconic as the corinthian is to hoplites and the gallic G is to roman legioaires. |
It's not, really. Have a look at the Codex Manesse. Everybody is doing outrageous helmet crests. It's not something specifically to Teutonic Knights at all. I'd even hazard to guess that everyone but the Teutonics (and other knightly orders) were doing such crests. The rules of their order would probably have forbidden too outrageous displays. |
also btw. i said its ICONIC. lwhether they actually wore them into battle is another story,. but if you google teutonic knight.about 70% of images show the hauberk wearing, horned greathelms of various designs in the pictres. so to say its not iconic. id sayis wrong, but id be willing to accept its ahistorical
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Augusto Boer Bront
Industry Professional
Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Posts: 294
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 26 Jul, 2011 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| Nathan Quarantillo wrote: | | I won't be using an exact replica of the Pembridge. The Helm I'm looking at has features based off of it to keep it 14th century. And the cervelliere look is nice, but I think I'll make it a later improvement purchase... |
1375, the date the helm's owner died, is in the 14th century. Will that alone not "keep it 14th century?"
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 26 Jul, 2011 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| Augusto Boer Bront wrote: | If you want a great helm (I love them too) that covers the whole 14th century, use a sugar loaf one. They can be seen form the '80s of the 13th century to the and of the 14th.
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I'd love to see evidence of this. Looking at surviving great helms form 1300 on you see separate riveted-on crown plates as the norm, not the peak of the sugarloaf. In fact, there are no surviving helm I know of that are of the sugarloaf form. The form is known from period art.
On top of that, most great helms you see in art past 1325 (or thereabouts) is usually crested, making it hard to tell what the top looks like. I think it's a stretch to say the sugarloaf covers a full 100 years since I haven't seen evidence for that.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Augusto Boer Bront
Industry Professional
Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Posts: 294
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 26 Jul, 2011 6:44 am Post subject: |
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None of those helms are definitively sugarloafs. You can't see them from the side to see if it comes to a peak (more or less) or in enough detail to see if there is a separate crown plate riveted in. Plus, many of them are covered on the top making the helm's top speculative. A central ridge does not mean it's a sugarloaf as many (most) helms with a riveted-in crownplate, which are not sugarloafs, have a medial ridge. Without more detail, calling helms of the latter half of the 14th century sugarloafs is a reach. We have surviving great helms of that era that are not sugarloafs. And not all non-flat-topped great helms are sugarloafs. That term is used to describe the peaked form popular late in the 13th century.
The Black Prince's helm has a medial ridge, but no separate crown plate, but still isn't a sugarloaf.
In your earlier post, the two miniatures are late 13th century and prove nothing about the use of the sugarloaf in the 14th century. The effigy's helm has a covered top and is shown from the front. Since it dates from the 1370s, it's more likely that it's constructed similarly to the Pembridge helm than to helms in use 100 years earlier.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Augusto Boer Bront
Industry Professional
Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Posts: 294
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 26 Jul, 2011 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| Augusto Boer Bront wrote: | Sorry, but I have to disagree again  .
In this effigy in particular it's clear thet it's a sugaloaf. http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/mi08955j10a.jpg The curved lines of the top and the absence of the separate crown strongly suggests that is still a sugarloaf.(if you enlarge the image it's more clear). And here there isn't a crest. |
Zooming in as much as the image allows (which isn't much) shows some kind of line/break at the top. This could be the demarcation of a crown plate or something denoting an applied crest holder or something. But there's something just before the peak, not a smooth transition to an integrated peak.
It could be a sugarloaf with an applied crest mount or or other decoration. It could be a crown plate. Given that every other surviving helm of the period is not a sugarloaf, I know how I'd interpret it, but we don't all have to agree.
I'd love to see a higher-res version so we could zoom in without it getting so pixellated.
 Attachment: 28.79 KB
Attachment: 21.13 KB
Look inside the circle, just above the arrow, for something that isn't smooth to the peak. There is a line straight across the top of the helm.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Augusto Boer Bront
Industry Professional
Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Posts: 294
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 01 Aug, 2011 11:21 am Post subject: |
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Heres Nathan's knee cops that will allow him to cover more of a historical window with his kit .
Attachment: 46.15 KB
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Augusto Boer Bront
Industry Professional
Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Posts: 294
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William P
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| Posted: Mon 01 Aug, 2011 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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besagaws on knee cops? never seen that before,,, was that typical of the period?
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 01 Aug, 2011 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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William, they're not besagues but whats called rondels and yes they appear frequently in artwork of the period.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 02 Aug, 2011 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| Allan Senefelder wrote: | | William, they're not besagues but whats called rondels and yes they appear frequently in artwork of the period. |
Also used on elbow cops and even on the sides of some metal caps ( helmets ).
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Kurt Scholz
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| Posted: Tue 02 Aug, 2011 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| Allan Senefelder wrote: | | Heres Nathan's knee cops that will allow him to cover more of a historical window with his kit . |
The only thing I miss is a creative mind that makes them rotating.
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Nathan Quarantillo
Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 279
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| Posted: Wed 03 Aug, 2011 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, thanks for posting Allan, they are magnificent!
And yes, the rondels will put me in the 14th century.
And Kurt, (Mr. Scholz if you prefer) That would be WAY too much blingage even for a Ritterbrudern.
However, chrome those up, get them spinning, and you will cover a 21st century rapping Flavabrudern quite well.
Quite wonderful Allan! Your work is superb!
"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
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Steven Janus
Location: Florida, USA Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Sat 06 Aug, 2011 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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Nathan, is that a Darksword Armory Norman sword? I never thought I'd see someone use one as part of a kit on myArmoury. Don't get me wrong, I like DSA but due to some of their troubled past they aren't as 'popular' here as the other budget forges. How heavy is your Norman btw? I'm working on a Medieval Knight sword, for a client, that was forged recently and it only weighs 2.2 pounds in its finished state. I was curious if the Norman was now made of thinner stock too. Looks good on you, their newer thinner stock swords are very good. I was very impressed with the way my customer's Medieval Knight sword handled even before I touched it up. I can rebalance yours if you want, PM me if your interested.
Newbie Sword collector
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This is a standard topic