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Bram van Diemen
Location: Tilburg Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 29
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 Posted: Fri 01 Apr, 2011 11:35 am Post subject: Langmesser |
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A question. I'm looking for a side arm for my burgundian archer. I'm looking for a short bladed sword, somewhere in the falcion or langmesser kind. How common would langmessers be outside the holy empire?
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Matthijs Witsenburg
Location: The Hague, Netherlands Joined: 03 Jan 2011
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Fri 01 Apr, 2011 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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What exact period are you portraying? Charles the Bold, in his ordonnance of 1471 (?) recommends a hand and a halfsword as a sidearm for archers. I'm not certain how strict these rules were.
Part of Burgundy was originally part of he holy roman empire, as can be seen here. I don't think that the inhabitants of those parts of Burgundy would immediately abandon any and all germanic influences.
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Bram van Diemen
Location: Tilburg Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 29
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| Posted: Fri 01 Apr, 2011 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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I portray an archer around 1465-ish. And I have a hand and a halfsword. But would like to be able to also carry a short sword along with a buckler Marc van Hasselt forged many many years ago.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 01 Apr, 2011 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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The "lang" in "Langmesser" means "long." Since you're looking for shorter weapons, wouldn't it just be a "messer?" 
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 01 Apr, 2011 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | | The "lang" in "Langmesser" means "long." Since you're looking for shorter weapons, wouldn't it just be a "messer?" |
Maybe, maybe not. The weapons depicted in period fencing manuscripts, such as the ones that Albion's messers are based off of, are often called "long knives". So if he's looking for something that is "short sword" in length, the terminology isn't out of the question.
As for the original question, I've seen little evidence of what we would call a "messer" outside of the Germanic regions. Falchions and knives that have similar blades, yes, but the iconic slab-hilted, single edged weapon? Not that I'm aware of.
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Matthijs Witsenburg
Location: The Hague, Netherlands Joined: 03 Jan 2011
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Sat 02 Apr, 2011 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | | As for the original question, I've seen little evidence of what we would call a "messer" outside of the Germanic regions. |
As can be seen in the map linked to in my earlier post, the holy roman empire extended much further west than modern Germany and a large part of Burgundy at the end of the reign of Philip the Good fell within the borders of the empire. While the Valois dukes were French in origin, much Burgundy wasn't.
I don't think that, for instance in Holland or Guelders, there would be no Germanic influence on material culture, just because they were under Burgundian rule.
That being said, I don't know how widespread the use of langmesser was within the empire. It would probably be incorrect to assume that they were uniformly prevalent throughout the empire.
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A. Heidalen Skog
Location: Norway Joined: 07 Oct 2010
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Sat 02 Apr, 2011 2:33 am Post subject: |
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Well, to my (limited) knowledge, langmessers were used in, and around the Reich.
Germanic is a language group btw. (Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, German, Dutch, English etc.)
I am very interested in Germanic tribes and culture, especially the Norse. Pardon the off-topic bit -_-
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Fabrice Cognot
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 10 Apr, 2011 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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Messers would have been called "Braquemards" or "braquemarts" in French - don't stay too focused on a specific spelling, there was no such thing as rules for this at the time.
Though later (or also at these times) 'braquemard' woudl also have another meaning. More...manly, and genital in nature.
But the use of long knives, sometimes wiht a Rüstnagel, is indeed documentend in the French and Burgundian realms.
Cheers
Fab
PhD in medieval archeology.
HEMAC member
De Taille et d'Estoc director
Maker of high quality historical-inspired pieces.
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This is a standard topic