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Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > The De Cosson example,sub type xvIII Reply to topic
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Lee O'Hagan




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PostPosted: Sat 04 Sep, 2004 5:59 am    Post subject: The De Cosson example,sub type xvIII         Reply with quote

In E Oakeshott's The sword in the age of chivalry,
page 79,fig 45, montante
The sword shown in the drawing features a detailed riccaso, with lugs
the fact it has the lugs to the riccasso make it a 'montante' ,early forerunner of the two-handers, if i'm reading correctly,
As the swords i've seen with notable 'lugs' are the large two handers,but they sport large lugs,not necassarily directly on the riccasso,
nothing really as gracefull looking as the book sketch,
are these historically feasable on any hand and a half, within reason,
Does anyone have any pictures of this sword or similer,hand and a half instead of the larger two handers,
Any help/opinions,
Thanks,

Lee.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Jan, 2005 2:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've decided to ressurrect this topic. I came across some examples while doing some research on another topic and felt it relavent enough to share here.

First, here is Ewart Oakeshott's illustration that Lee mentions above.



The following two images are from the book, Armi Bianche Italiane, BOCCIA, Lionello G. ; COELHO, Eduardo T. Also included are the text write-ups, in Italian, that include dimensions (in square brackets).



Click for full-sized version






Click for full-sized version


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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Jan, 2005 2:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And this is one of my favorites. It is a two-hander and doesn't have the rounded-in ricasso as on the previous examples, but I'm including it both because the lugs are on the small side and they are also quite close to the hilt compared to many other two-handers:



It's most certainly of a different type, but relevant for the purpose of contrasting to the previous examples. Note that this is also Italian, but dates some 100 years later, circa 1550.

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 14 Jan, 2005 3:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The main use of these lugs is usually assumed to be able to shorten the blade when fighting up close or for more control and speedy recovery.

I have seen some picture were this would seem impossible because of lack of room for the hand on certain two handers.

I guess with these small or very close to the guard lugs there has to be other uses: Parrying close to the lug with better leverage or hooking (Trapping the opponents blade maybe.)

These lugs could give some protection if fingering the guard I assume.

So maybe these small lugs would be used for the above as sometimes mentionned in text describing twohanders, but usually with very little detail.

Where the lugs are bigger and further down the blade more options are possible.

I am not saying that this is a fact: I am saying this as questions based on my impressions and guesses.

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Gary Grzybek




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PostPosted: Fri 14 Jan, 2005 3:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Those are some very facinating features and one could think of several practical uses. We know that on the more familiar two handers the lugs could protect the hand while grasping the blade at the ricasso. Now there's the few that show the lugs much closer to the guard, obviously too close for the hand to fit in between. Interesting also is the waisted profile in the ricasso. I may be so bold as to say that some of these features could allow the user to wrap the fore finger around the guard for added control while still having a some protection. Obviously the added finger rings on early developed compound hilts worked better but you never know.

I have to agree with you here Big Grin

Gary Grzybek
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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Jan, 2005 4:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

After watching John Waller (& son Jonathan) use their hilts in a highly effective offensive manner makes me wanna rethink these lugs as a soley defensive feature, as well !

Mac

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 14 Jan, 2005 5:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas;

Yes, I agree that these lugs have offensif potential: My Del Tin 2162 has fairly large lugs about 8 inches from the guard and might have armour piercing potential up close using the handle in the usual way. Or with one hand far up the blade using the lugs and / or the very long guard in various hooks or strikes. (Almost quarter staff like!? )

With both hands on the blade (With gloves on and a not too sharp blade!) the lugs, the guard and the pommel could turn this type of sword into a credible mace. )

No real knowledge on my part: Just using my imagination and what seems logical.

Probably the offensive potential got better with larger lugs not too close to the hilt. (Any evidence off these lugs evolving in this direction or do the smaller / closer lugs occur at the same time as the Larger / further lugs?

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Lee O'Hagan




Location: Northamptonshire,England
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PostPosted: Sat 15 Jan, 2005 5:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan,
Many thanks for coming back and sharing,
the new Del tin pics you listed on another thread, one of those seems to lean towards these designs too,
The blade picture you put up to my eyes seems to flare in the centre of the tang, is this seen alot historically on the larger swords,
i'd thought when looking through things it would have had a more standard taper from guard to pommel,
The Montante pictue drawn by E Oakesott to my eyes looks as if the ricasso is big enough for a single hand grip,
i've been looking at a few of the fetchbuch sword type patterns and had thought the few hand and a halfs mentioned might in some way be connected to those?,
The larger two hand types with the lugs,
i'd also agree to them being a good offensive add on to the large swords,as mentioned in some of the two hand sword demo's i've managed to see via tv,, when using the sword hilt in a bludgeoning style these would do some real damage, also they look as if they could drag an opponent easily off balance,amongst other things,
Thanks for the different points of discussion guys it's good reading,
I'm hoping to have something similer made this year so any and all info is interestng,
Personally i'm leaning towards the smaller hand and a half,probly more closely resembling the sketch Nathan posted,by EA,Oakeshott,
I think the scabbard design wil be interesting too,

Best,
Lee.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 17 Jan, 2005 2:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

While doing some research on some armour pieces, I came across another example of lugged swords worth sharing here. Like the previous two-hander, this is quite different than the De Cosson example, but is relavent, albeit off-topic from the original post, from a point of view of comparison. It's very similar to the previous two-handed shown and shows a close-up of the blade and lugged area quite nicely.


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Gary Grzybek




Location: Stillwater N.J.
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Mon 17 Jan, 2005 3:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
While doing some research on some armour pieces, I came across another example of lugged swords worth sharing here. Like the previous two-hander, this is quite different than the De Cosson example, but is relavent, albeit off-topic from the original post, from a point of view of comparison. It's very similar to the previous two-handed shown and shows a close-up of the blade and lugged area quite nicely.



Beautiful sword Eek!

Those lugs sure look dangerous enough.

Gary Grzybek
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Tue 20 Feb, 2007 11:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
While doing some research on some armour pieces, I came across another example of lugged swords worth sharing here. Like the previous two-hander, this is quite different than the De Cosson example, but is relavent, albeit off-topic from the original post, from a point of view of comparison. It's very similar to the previous two-handed shown and shows a close-up of the blade and lugged area quite nicely.


Click for full-sized versions



That's in mantova's Diocesan, it was with the famed armours of the Gonzagas in the Rivalta's Sanctuary.

I saw it, well kept but a broken point.

Handle is high quality bare wood, well polished (restoration ...).
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