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Jack W. Englund
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 Posted: Sun 23 Jan, 2011 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Just a "side note"
An "old" ( 80s) friend of mine Still uses an 164 year old hand gun as His PD weapon in his home. ( A "Walker Handed down through the family)
When I ?? & offered a more "modern gun", He said thanks, but this gun was carried by my Great Great Grandpa etc. Still gets the "job done." I have it, & if ness. I will use it..
So the "idea" of an old Matchlock, still used, may not be so ???
Jack
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Lin Robinson
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| Posted: Sun 23 Jan, 2011 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Jack W. Englund wrote: | Just a "side note"
An "old" ( 80s) friend of mine Still uses an 164 year old hand gun as His PD weapon in his home. ( A "Walker Handed down through the family)
When I ?? & offered a more "modern gun", He said thanks, but this gun was carried by my Great Great Grandpa etc. Still gets the "job done." I have it, & if ness. I will use it..
So the "idea" of an old Matchlock, still used, may not be so ???
Jack |
If you are referring to a Walker Colt then I have to believe your friend is making a big mistake. Does he have any idea what that revolver is worth?
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Keith Burgess
Location: New England Australia Joined: 20 Jan 2011
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Sun 23 Jan, 2011 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Lin Robinson wrote: | I have ordered, and hope to eventually receive, a replica of the Jamestown Scottish snaphaunce shown in the previous post. It has been nearly a year since I ordered. When I have it in hand I will post a photo on the forum.
Here is a b & w closeup of the lock on one of the pair of brass pistols in the previous post. If anyone is interested in more photos of Scottish pistols and other guns please send me a PM. |
Thanks for this image Lin. This is a good example of where the flint lock got its name for the HAMMER, which a lot of people mistakenly call the FRIZZEN these days.
“I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived.” Henry David Thoreau.
http://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com/
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Keith Burgess
Location: New England Australia Joined: 20 Jan 2011
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Sun 23 Jan, 2011 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Jack W. Englund wrote: | Just a "side note"
An "old" ( 80s) friend of mine Still uses an 164 year old hand gun as His PD weapon in his home. ( A "Walker Handed down through the family)
When I ?? & offered a more "modern gun", He said thanks, but this gun was carried by my Great Great Grandpa etc. Still gets the "job done." I have it, & if ness. I will use it..
So the "idea" of an old Matchlock, still used, may not be so ???
Jack |
Yes there are a lot of items from earlier periods still in use. When I went back to England for a visit after my Father died, I brought back some of his tools( a lot were missing!), and some I believe date back to the 18th century, certainly the styles are 18thc. and hand forged.
The Walker in its original form used to drop its loading lever on firing, which was a drawback, but at the time it was considered the most powerfull revolver in the world. I had heard the most powerfull hand gun, but I doubt it could match a .60 cal flintlock smoothbore or larger.
When I was in the Territory, I used to strap on a colt cap & ball revolver every morning with my pants. In later years I started carrying a single action .357 magnum.
Keith.
“I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived.” Henry David Thoreau.
http://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com/
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Jack W. Englund
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| Posted: Sun 23 Jan, 2011 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Lin Robinson wrote: | | Jack W. Englund wrote: | Just a "side note"
An "old" ( 80s) friend of mine Still uses an 164 year old hand gun as His PD weapon in his home. ( A "Walker Handed down through the family)
When I ?? & offered a more "modern gun", He said thanks, but this gun was carried by my Great Great Grandpa etc. Still gets the "job done." I have it, & if ness. I will use it..
So the "idea" of an old Matchlock, still used, may not be so ???
Jack |
If you are referring to a Walker Colt then I have to believe your friend is making a big mistake. Does he have any idea what that revolver is worth? |
Yes a "Walker Colt"
He knows the collectors $$$, but to him, it is a "working gun" ( to be used, not hung on the wall or kept as a "safe queen")
I also have a couple of "old guns"
1. A rolling block .22 cal. ( date 1865 + ) My grand mother's ) My 1st gun & I used it..
2. My Dad's " 1st hunting rifle" (a lever action ( take down) dating from the "Spanish/Amer War.)
3. My M-I ( 1945/1954 ) I shoot it reg.
4. My coz packs his dad's WWII 1911
BTW, I dream of owning a "authentic" All steel Pistol, but if I ever get one & if it safe to do so, I will shoot it.. 
I own no "safe queens"
I realize my attitude "freaks out collectors" But .....
Jack
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Jack W. Englund
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| Posted: Sun 23 Jan, 2011 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Keith Burgess wrote: | | Jack W. Englund wrote: | Just a "side note"
An "old" ( 80s) friend of mine Still uses an 164 year old hand gun as His PD weapon in his home. ( A "Walker Handed down through the family)
When I ?? & offered a more "modern gun", He said thanks, but this gun was carried by my Great Great Grandpa etc. Still gets the "job done." I have it, & if ness. I will use it..
So the "idea" of an old Matchlock, still used, may not be so ???
Jack |
Yes there are a lot of items from earlier periods still in use. When I went back to England for a visit after my Father died, I brought back some of his tools( a lot were missing!), and some I believe date back to the 18th century, certainly the styles are 18thc. and hand forged.
The Walker in its original form used to drop its loading lever on firing, which was a drawback, but at the time it was considered the most powerfull revolver in the world. I had heard the most powerfull hand gun, but I doubt it could match a .60 cal flintlock smoothbore or larger.
When I was in the Territory, I used to strap on a colt cap & ball revolver every morning with my pants. In later years I started carrying a single action .357 magnum.
Keith. |
A side note on the "Walker" - Until the 44mag, it was the most powerful hand gun out there. In my experience, @ close range, it will give a "60 cal +," smoothy"( long arm) a run .A smoothy pistol NO CONTEST
.BTW, my PP arm is a .357 & I carry a SA (modern) .44 mag in "bear country"
Jack
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Lin Robinson
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| Posted: Sun 23 Jan, 2011 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Keith Burgess wrote: |
Thanks for this image Lin. This is a good example of where the flint lock got its name for the HAMMER, which a lot of people mistakenly call the FRIZZEN these days. |
Actually frizzen is the most common appelation now, at least in the US. It is also referred to as a battery or steel. Terminology for the parts of these locks has varied in different time periods and locations.
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Lin Robinson
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| Posted: Sun 23 Jan, 2011 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Jack W. Englund wrote: |
He knows the collectors $$$, but to him, it is a "working gun" ( to be used, not hung on the wall or kept as a "safe queen")
I also have a couple of "old guns"
1. A rolling block .22 cal. ( date 1865 + ) My grand mother's ) My 1st gun & I used it..
2. My Dad's " 1st hunting rifle" (a lever action ( take down) dating from the "Spanish/Amer War.)
3. My M-I ( 1945/1954 ) I shoot it reg.
4. My coz packs his dad's WWII 1911
BTW, I dream of owning a "authentic" All steel Pistol, but if I ever get one & if it safe to do so, I will shoot it..
I own no "safe queens"
I realize my attitude "freaks out collectors" But .....
Jack |
There is a very large difference between using a WWII vintage pistol for self-defense and using a 164 year old antique which could be worth $40,000 to $100,000 depending upon serial number, provenance and condition! Your friend is doing a great dis-service to himself by relyng on an antique and antiquated firearm for protection. Reliability is highly questionable in a gun that old as is integrity of the mechanism. It could easily blow up, ruining both his hand and the gun. The other thing he is doing is denying access to and potentially destroying an historic firearm of great interest to both collectors and historians. Only 2,100 of these guns were made and, as you probably know, the ones issued to the Texas Ranger companies are extremely rare and valuable.
As far as firing an original all-metal Scottish pistol, that would be a very unwise thing to do. There are only about 700 of these guns extant and even a 19th c. costume pistol may bring $6500 at auction. There are plenty of replica firearms out there which can give you the sensation of what it was like to fire originals. Why run the risk of ruining a scarce and valuable antique?
Also, a correction. The Walker lost its position as the most powerful revolver in the world when the Colt New Service Pistol was chambered for the .45 ACP.
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
Last edited by Lin Robinson on Mon 24 Jan, 2011 4:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Keith Burgess
Location: New England Australia Joined: 20 Jan 2011
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Sun 23 Jan, 2011 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Lin Robinson wrote: | | Keith Burgess wrote: |
Thanks for this image Lin. This is a good example of where the flint lock got its name for the HAMMER, which a lot of people mistakenly call the FRIZZEN these days. |
Actually frizzen is the most common appelation now, at least in the US. It is also referred to as a battery or steel. Terminology for the parts of these locks has varied in different time periods and locations. |
The trouble with using modern terms such as frizzen instead of HAMMER, and hammer instead of COCK is that it gets confusing for begginners. When flint, steel and tinderbox was in use, and still is, the terms TINDER and KINDLING were well understood. Now the ferocium rod is called a steel, which it is not, and tinder has become grass and sticks, which used to be kindling!
I simply see no point in changing original terms, it just makes it very confusing. Frizzen may very well be in common usage now, but it is a 20th century term and a wrong one.
Keith.
“I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived.” Henry David Thoreau.
http://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com/
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Lin Robinson
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| Posted: Mon 24 Jan, 2011 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| Keith Burgess wrote: |
The trouble with using modern terms such as frizzen instead of HAMMER, and hammer instead of COCK is that it gets confusing for begginners. When flint, steel and tinderbox was in use, and still is, the terms TINDER and KINDLING were well understood. Now the ferocium rod is called a steel, which it is not, and tinder has become grass and sticks, which used to be kindling!
I simply see no point in changing original terms, it just makes it very confusing. Frizzen may very well be in common usage now, but it is a 20th century term and a wrong one.
Keith. |
When I first became interested in black powder arms, way back in 1967, I read everything I could find on the subject. There was a lot less information available at the time but what was available was more than adequate to get me started in the hobby, and keep me interested for the last 44 years. At that time frizzen was the common term but I also knew the terms steel and hammer and battery and had no problem understanding that they meant the same thing. With the amount of literature that is out there now, including places like the myArmoury forums, it seems to me that anyone with the interest and motivation to research will not be confused by the terminology, at least not for long. I do not know where the term frizzen originated but it is now pervasive in the black powder community, at least the community at large, so I do not think it is strictly speaking the wrong term to use. Language evolves.
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Keith Burgess
Location: New England Australia Joined: 20 Jan 2011
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Mon 24 Jan, 2011 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Lin Robinson wrote: | | Keith Burgess wrote: |
The trouble with using modern terms such as frizzen instead of HAMMER, and hammer instead of COCK is that it gets confusing for begginners. When flint, steel and tinderbox was in use, and still is, the terms TINDER and KINDLING were well understood. Now the ferocium rod is called a steel, which it is not, and tinder has become grass and sticks, which used to be kindling!
I simply see no point in changing original terms, it just makes it very confusing. Frizzen may very well be in common usage now, but it is a 20th century term and a wrong one.
Keith. |
When I first became interested in black powder arms, way back in 1967, I read everything I could find on the subject. There was a lot less information available at the time but what was available was more than adequate to get me started in the hobby, and keep me interested for the last 44 years. At that time frizzen was the common term but I also knew the terms steel and hammer and battery and had no problem understanding that they meant the same thing. With the amount of literature that is out there now, including places like the myArmoury forums, it seems to me that anyone with the interest and motivation to research will not be confused by the terminology, at least not for long. I do not know where the term frizzen originated but it is now pervasive in the black powder community, at least the community at large, so I do not think it is strictly speaking the wrong term to use. Language evolves. |
Well my personal view is that we should strive to correct misinformation, and on a forum such as this I would have thought that it was very important to use original terminology.
Keith.
“I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived.” Henry David Thoreau.
http://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com/
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