A&A Custom 'type O' Pommel WarSword Project -- myArmoury.com

E Sideris · Posted: Mon 21 Feb, 2011 5:19 pm Post subject:

Thanks, J.D.! I wish they hadn't discontinued it; it's beautiful. I see now why I thought it was the Norwegian one: the more curved guard and the metal ferrules. But you're right, the blade more closely matches that of the Cawood sword.

The Type O is looking marvelous.

J.D. Crawford · Posted: Mon 21 Feb, 2011 5:28 pm Post subject:

Tim Lison · Posted: Mon 21 Feb, 2011 5:48 pm Post subject:

Matt Corbin · Posted: Mon 21 Feb, 2011 6:36 pm Post subject:

Wow! Beautiful!!!

J.D. Crawford · Posted: Mon 21 Feb, 2011 6:39 pm Post subject:

Other than some very general guidelines (i.e., leather) I'm leaving it up to Craig to decide the grip on this one, including the color and any underwrap design. He's told me one interesting idea he has - I guess we might see this next week. -JD

Maurizio D'Angelo · Posted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 2:42 pm Post subject:

Fontevivo Abbey founded in 1142. (Parma - Italy)
the tomb of Guido Pallavicini, Templar Knight who died in 1301.

a masterly work, great choice.

J.D. Crawford · Posted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 3:55 pm Post subject:

Thanks Maurizio!

That's extremely interesting - 'O' is supposed to be a German type, and here it is 'in the hands' of an Italian Knight, and a Templar no less! There is also supposed to be some connection between type O/N and the Teutonic Order, based on the distribution of finds; I wonder if there could have been some inter-order conection here. One can only speculate.

The other thing that interests me is that all of these example in Art show such a strong curvature compared to the 2-3 known archeological examples. Is it possible that the archeological finds are just transitional forms from N to O, and there were much more strongly curved O pommels in history? Was this the latest, final form? Or was this just artistic liscence? I know little of medieval art, but from what I have read, they tended to be quite literal and use real props as models.

-JD

Tim Lison · Posted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 4:24 pm Post subject:

Great post Maurizio! That is such a cool effigy!

Who knows what swords exist under the earth waiting to be found? Perhaps there is a type O with a more signifigant curve.

I'm attaching a pic of a dagger with such a pommel. It doesn't prove anything of course and is said to be from the 13th/14th century, but at least we know its possible...

Chad Arnow · myArmoury Team

Scott Kowalski · Chris Landwehr 10/10/49-1/1/09 My Mom

That is a great looking sword J.D. I've been away for awhile and this was one of the first things that caught my interest. COngratulations to you and a hearty good job to Craig and the gang at A&A. This gets me wanting another custom sword. Sad

Unfortunately it is not in the finances now nor in the foreseeable future.

Maurizio D'Angelo · Posted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 4:39 pm Post subject:

@ JD Crawford

Tim, in his first post shows a pommell with a strong curvature. (in Maciejowski Bible)
This is very similar. Very interesting your theory about the evolution of two types

@Tim
Tim I have to correct the date of this knife is 13/14 century. It 's a photo from the book
"Europaische Hieb und Stich Waffen" - Heinrich Muller - Hartmut Kolling - J. Neumann - ISBN 3-7888-0431-9 pag. 177

Tim Lison · Posted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 4:39 pm Post subject:

Maurizio D'Angelo · Posted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 4:42 pm Post subject:

Maurizio D'Angelo · Posted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 4:47 pm Post subject:

sorry Tim, you have not had time to correct the error.
We, almost like machine guns in action. Happy

The first caption (48) is actually the 15th century.
Easy to get confused, as it is written.

Maurizio D'Angelo · Posted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 5:17 pm Post subject:

J.D. Crawford · Posted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 5:32 pm Post subject:

Maurizio, I agree, it seems unlikely that the sculptor would be so accurate in every detail and then exaggerate the pommel of the sword. I tend to think these dramatic swords were real.

By the way, our original plan was to make a sword like one in the hands of the St. Peter sculpture at Frieburg Cathedral, which also has a strongly curved pommel and a very wide blade. This is drawn in Oakeshott's SAC. However we did not have a depiction of the full sword, and then we got our hands on drawings of the real sword, so we decided to play it safe with history.

PS - I think that picture of the Templar sword has gotten my imagination going - these N/O swords seem to have reached the end of their run around the same time as the suppression of the Knights templar, 1307. Coincidence? Happy

Craig Johnson · Industry Professional

Thank you Maurizio

That is a great example and one I had only seen in drawings not in the stone as it where. I have been on a very big search of period art of late. (several different projects, sadly most are my own distractions into weird elements I run across as opposed to paying jobs Eek!

) but I have been finding some quite unique things, but the most striking is the accuracy of the art. Even when I start saying that just can't be some how it turns out to be right. The problem is I don't understand it not that they where being fanciful. That does happen but not as often as one would think.

The effigy seems to be very accurate and the sword quite interesting. Might be a cool project. The crescent does have quite a long history as a symbol and on that would not be lost on folks that had a strong affiliation to it.

Is the effigy life sized?

Best
Craig

Glen A Cleeton · Posted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 6:52 pm Post subject:

Crescents through history, a document pulled from an old periodical.

http://files.myopera.com/3sails/files/crescents.doc

Iirc, I included the source link as well

Here is the whole volume url if concerned about the download
http://books.google.com/books?id=NsYEAAAAYAAJ

Fun and interesting stuff to read.

Cheers

GC

Tim Lison · Posted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: Cool

J.D. Crawford · Posted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 7:13 pm Post subject:

I've long been fascinated by the imagery behind historical sword furniture, e.g.,

- the obvious crucifix imagery of the basic knightly sword
- as I've argued elsewhere, certain Viking age grips look remarkably like Thor's hammer amulets
- there are saga references to 'the fist' of the sword, presumably early lobated pommels

The crescent seems like an image of...obviously the moon, but then whatever else that might stand for. I don't know the deep history of this particular image, but based on cartoons and such that we grew up with, it seems to be associated with some kind of wizardry. I was half joking above about the fall of the Templars, but it doesn't seem outlandish that certain sects would use certain symbols....and this might be remembered in a distorted fashion down the centuries (like the date Friday 13). And if that particular image was associated with certain esoteric aspects of the knightly orders, I would sure drop it like a hot potatoe after seeing what happened to the Templars. (Remembering that from real evidence, this pommel has more of a Teutonic association).

Probably I've read one two many historical novels, but It's certainly fun to speculate about these things. (Better get to bed before I say something even more silly that I'll really regret in the morning.)