[Greg Mele]

[Chris Last]

Somewhere I heard my name on the intrawebs, hiya Greg, hope all is well with you!


Robert-

As a continuing student of Bob Charron and St. Martin's Academy, I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have or put you in direct contact with Bob. I can say that working with Bob has been one of the great pleasures of my life so far. The focus as I see it is about understanding the concepts of martial culture through out history and applying that understanding to physical action. Sounds a bit esoteric, I know. But it is a physically and mentally challenging task to relearn how a modern body should move and react in a martial context. I live right in Janesville, so if you want to get together and chat just drop me a PM.

Best-

Chris

[Robert Hinds]

[Nathan F]

just to get a gauge im just seeing which suits your interest levels most robert.
here is longsword sparring from an english group on bar with the levels i see many american hema groups spar at?
correct me people if any comments are wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E22B8E2MXi0

here is a polish hema group what i would call a bit rougher although more experienced fighters in america etc fight at this level and some of the guys in these videos are from the polish arma branch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7aXtzf7-Lk

now sca that i have seen this video shows various forms of sca
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQjh8EQ5h40

this is a form of sca style combat from the ukraine which i think might be a shade rougher.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=113LB33DLEU

then normal mma fighting which is pride and k1 and ufc i believe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2f6RGVZ5SI

then rougher mma rioheroes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_qAjKmOBnY&feature=related

where are you at in regards to what interests you most?

[Robert Hinds]

Nathan thanks for thinking to post the vid's, but i'm afraid I won't be able to see them. At least not for awhile. I have dial-up internet and so loading anything takes hours...it would probably take me 5 hours or so to load all the vid's you posted.

I could check them on my friends laptop (and high speed internet) this saturday when I see him though, depends on how many "=3" videos he wants to show me. lol.

I did see a few other videos of sparring and such on his laptop before, particularly ARMA video's. My favorite video was one of Aarron Pyneburg (I think thats his name) and some other guy, fighting in full harness. It was pretty cool.

I also saw a vid someone posted on here in august, of something called "battle of the nations". That was pretty rough. I would not engage in anything like that unless I had a FULL GOTHIC HARNESS. Needless to say i'm not looking for anything quite that rough, not for a weekly study group anyway.

Besides lots of ARMA sparring vid's showing lots of grappling, I also saw a Finnish or Swedish video of a group doing longsword/messer/dagger and spear techniques. That was pretty awesome as well.

As far as MMA is concerned, I probably wouldn't be interested. The whole cage match thing seems a bit much, and those guys usually look pretty full of themselves. At least on TV lol.

I'm sure I want to get into WMA, even if it isn't rough, because i've had a life long fascination with knights and essentially everything medieval or relating to armour and weapons.

[P. Cha]

[Greg Mele]

Well, after 15 years of fighting as a heavy in the SCA, quite successfully, and about the same time in HEMA studies, I feel qualified to say that this is a very vague, and apples to oranges discussion.

I really don't want to get into the origins of SCA blow conventions, which claims a good blow is meant to penetrate mail armour, although that idea was invented 44 years ago with no real data behind it - we now know that armoured knights in riveted mail died to successions of blows, not to a single, mail-shearing blow. So, the convention stands, but really means a hard, solid blow. What is "full power"? Certainly what constitutes a "good blow" in the SCA varies from kingdom to kingdom; to put it in SCA parlance, a basic good blow in Meridies (the Southern US) certainly isn't a good blow in Atlantia (DC area) or An TIr (Northwest). And what is a "good blow" might be the hardest one person can hit and not even close to what another can do.

But in truth, the blows are hard, but not so hard as to be a danger to someone wearing SCA minimum armour. Which is only a 16 gauge steel helmet, hard elbows, knees, kidney protection, a gorget and kidney protection. Hockey gloves are the standard for hand protection. Yes, most people wear more than that, but that remains the 'standard' for safety gear. It is still a minority for many, many people to wear anything close to the mail hauberk over padding and helm (or helmet with mail drape) that the SCA "standard" is meant to represent.

Conversely, WMA "unarmoured" combat assumes that the opponent is wearing street clothes or a gambeson, and no more, so a solid cut or thrust will do the trick. While some groups will allow a lighter blow that I would, for most places this means that the blow needs to be solid - no flicks, draw cuts, etc. Do people hit as hard as they can? No. But there is no purpose in doing so, there is no assumed armour to counter. Do they hit *hard*? Often, yes.

I certainly agree that a fencing mask would be caved in by such a basic SCA flat-snap with a rattan club. But I also don't think it suitable for a longsword match, either. Which is why, my own group, and many others in the US, wear a gambeson (or padded, leather fencing master's jacket), steel gauntlets, hard elbow protection, a gorget and a helmet, specifically designed for the activity, such as those made by Windrose Armoury: http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/index.php?m...cts_id=641

IE: we're wearing about the same gear as SCA minimum standards, and in some case a bit more. Which is hardly armoured combat, but then that was my point - neither of these activities actually require a fully armoured man.

I will also note that while a rattan baton hits with less authority in most places, the wider surface area actually means that it strikes harder in many ways to the head - many blows that will cause a thin steel blade to glance off a bascinet or reinforced coaches mask "stick" with a rattan baton and transmit force differently into the target.

Honestly, one thing the SCA does is hit hard, but what precisely that means vis a vis unarmoured swordsmanship, or what that means outside of your experience is really moot. Your assertion that "NO HEMA group does this" is a lot like someone saying that no SCA event does real armoured combat, since no matter what a combatant wears, the combat convention remains the same - one solid blow thwarts any armour worn, giving a strange advantage in what is ostensibly "armoured combat" to people who wear close to SCA minimum, while penalizing a man in full plate kit. That *is* true on the surface, but it is also true that tere are SCA specialty tournaments, and have been since I was fighting in them in the 90s, that allow for armour as worn, and other events, like the Pennsic Battle of the Thirty, that have allowed half-swording, light grapples, knockdowns, etc.

Martin was quite right - this is apples to oranges, especially as there is no universal HEMA standard, so unless you are really involved from the inside and interacting with a wide variety of groups and practitioners, sweeping assertions are inappropriate.

Having done both activities, you will find varying degrees of force and aggressiveness in both, and wildly varying degrees of skill in both. But good fighters tend to be good fighters, be they HEMA, SCA, kendo or modern fencers.

[Martin Wallgren]

Thanx Greg!

This is just what I ment! SCA fighting is a sport. HEMA is a bunch of systems made to kill! If I would face a opponent in a "sharp" situation armoured like a heavy from SCA armed with a sword I would start working out of a halfsword possition and not even bother with normal blossfechten stuff (mortschlag maybe).

And as Greg said, a Swordstrike doesn´t have to be so hard to do the job in a unarmoured situation. Placement and timing and speed is more essencial that just force in my oppinion.

Well, I drop it in this thread before it gets to OT!

BTW... OT Greg, I´m working with your Vadi book right now. quite challangeing to do the italian school. Been in ze German swamp for many years now but so fun to change views. Exellent book...

[Jean Thibodeau]

Maybe with a real fight with sharp blades the important thing is getting ones edges or point in contact with the opponents body parts and very much less how hard one hits: if I get around your blade in any way that my blade makes contact and at the same time protects me from your blade you are dead.

The art is one of geometry and position I believe and understanding how one gets one's blade where one wants it in spite of all the opponent is doing to protect himself and staying safe from the opponents blade at the same time unless suicidal or stupidly brave or clueless.

A lot of how hard one hits become an obsession when one focuses on " Winning " bouts and how to judge and perceive hits rather than understanding the interplay of technique and tactics. ( Light blows with an edge that would have killed are ignored in favour of heavy blows that can be seen, felt or heard and much easier to count for points and declare a winner ).

I would guess that one could lose all of one's bout under some types of rules dealing with how hard one has hit but if it was a real fight the opponent would have been " cuisinared " by finesse and light draw cuts.

In armoured fighting certainly the " bludgeoning aspects " can become more important than finesse where draw cuts would be useless and finesse would be shown in halfswording and wresting.

Nothing wrong with the more " sportlike " rules for the fun of it but it probably distorts what one would really want to learn to be able to do in a real period fight. The sports rules would rapidly get you killed in period.

Well, just my opinion and I don't have personal experience with SCA or any of the more competitive versions of period martial arts.

[Greg Mele]

Martin,

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

[Jean Thibodeau]