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Jurian Moller





Joined: 13 Feb 2005

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sun 10 Apr, 2005 8:46 am    Post subject: Can someone tell me more         Reply with quote

Can someone tell me more about this sword, it was Found in germany, HunsrŁck.
The Overall Length is 56cm, Blade Length 48cm. (Iron)
The seller thought it could be celtic or roman although he didnt know anything about it.
1 2 3 4 5
from another seller I found this Mahira sword 200/300 BC , found in the Balkans
what is it worth in your opinion?
1 2
any info would be appreciated.


Last edited by Jurian Moller on Mon 11 Apr, 2005 2:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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B. Stark
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Location: ORYGUN
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PostPosted: Sun 10 Apr, 2005 9:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The bottom sword looks to be Thracian. Perhaps a sica knife. Possibly a local derivation of the kopis of Greek extraction. Could be Macedonian as well. This type of knife/shortsword was common to that region for centuries. As to the legitimacy of the find, I couldn't tell you. Though I would gather that it's genuine primarily because these types of weapons are generally below the radar as far as sword interest goes and not worth the effort to fake. Hard to say. But definitley typical of the Balkans for that era. The upper Celtic/Roman sword. I'd say probably not Celtic. Unless it's very early. In that case it's in a remarkable state of preservasion. So more than likely Roman or locally derived copy. Square tang section. This is mostly subjective though. Anyone else have any insight? Kirk? Nathan?
"Wyrd bi∂ ful arśd"

Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense?

Patrick Henry
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Kirk Lee Spencer




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PostPosted: Sun 10 Apr, 2005 2:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Jurian...

On the Celto-Roman sword, I would agree that as a first approximation it does appear to have a rough Celtic or Celto-Roman shape. However there is something about the proportions that seems off... especially the way the blade flares at the forte (upper part of the blade near the tang). However this could be due to over sharpening.

There are a few other things that might suggest it is not a period piece (although none are definitive):

-The tang doesn't look right. It is rectangular but it seems a little flatter, wider and rougher than what I have seen in pictures and drawings of Celtic swords. It is hard to tell from the angle of the photo but it appears that the blade may be a little thicker than typical Celtic blades.

-The shoulders of the blade (where the tang meets the butt of the blade) are not rounded at all but form a very sharp corner. Most ancient swordsmiths (especially the Celts) knew that such a sharp angle at the shoulder would focus stress in an already stressed part of the blade, leading to failure.

-The blade is a little short for your typical Celtic blade (except for British finds... but this blade was found in Germany... could be a British import I guess).

-The tang is too short even for a decent grip, much less a pommel and guard (although it appears that the tang has broken at a large rivet hole? If it is a rivet hole that is rare on Celtic and Roman swords.

-The rusting and pitting of the blade is somewhat uneven. Most of the pictures of Celtic and Roman blades I have seen have relatively even patina. (however, if it was buried in a soil with alot of gravel you might get this pattern of pitting)

In terms of workmanship, it appears to be below par for Celtic work... However I have only seen the museum and published stuff and that is obviously the cream of the crop. So there are surely Celtic works of rougher form out there. Maybe this was one of them.

What ever the case, I really like the shape of the blade... just not sure how to classify it.

ks

Two swords
Lit in Edenís flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Jurian Moller





Joined: 13 Feb 2005

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon 11 Apr, 2005 12:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies
Quote:
I'd say probably not Celtic.

I think your right, most celtic swords I saw are longer and have a very different shape.
Quote:
are not rounded at all but form a very sharp corner. Most ancient swordsmiths
(especially the Celts) knew that such a sharp angle at the shoulder would focus stress in an
already stressed part of the blade, leading to failure.

I don't know if it is roman, but I thought most roman swords have sharp corners? 1 / 2

bought the Thracian dagger Happy
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Eric McHugh
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Location: Crown Point, IN
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PostPosted: Mon 11 Apr, 2005 2:00 pm    Post subject: Not an expert...but         Reply with quote

Something doesn't look right to me about that blade. Can't put my finger on it, but it doesn't seem right. Maybe Craig or Peter can comment. I would be cautious if I was going to buy that blade. Just my two cents.
Find me on Facebook, or check out my blog. Contact me at eric@crownforge.net or ericmycue374@comcast.net if you want to talk about a commission or discuss an available piece.
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Mon 11 Apr, 2005 2:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree with Eric. Something just looks "off " about this blade. I can't really put a finger on what it is . After you've dealt with this stuff long enough you eye can tell you right from wrong before you can put it into words.

I'd pass.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Kirk Lee Spencer




Location: Texas
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PostPosted: Mon 11 Apr, 2005 2:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jurian Moller wrote:
I don't know if it is roman, but I thought most roman swords have sharp corners? 1 / 2

bought the Thracian dagger Happy



Hi Jurian...

If you are talking about the outside corners then yes they are usually sharp... If you are talking about the inside shoulders (the angle made by the tang attaching to the blade) then they are certainly sharper than Celtic swords... yet the limited number I have seen in pictures have a small radius (curve) between the tang and butt of the blade.

take care

ks

Two swords
Lit in Edenís flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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