Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Naval Dirks Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
Ben Potter
Industry Professional



Location: Western Idaho
Joined: 29 Sep 2008

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Sat 02 Oct, 2010 5:12 pm    Post subject: Naval Dirks         Reply with quote

I am looking for pictures of Naval Dirks particularly ones with D-guards and straight blades.
Any help would appreciated.

Thanks,
Ben

Ben Potter Bladesmith

It's not that I would trade my lot
For any other man's,
Nor that I will be ashamed
Of my work torn hands-

For I have chosen the path I tread
Knowing it would be steep,
And I will take the joys thereof
And the consequences reap.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 4
Posts: 4,393

PostPosted: Sat 02 Oct, 2010 7:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is one of the best looking British Naval dirks that I have come across - see this thread over at SFI from a few years ago - http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.p...rk+british -

16 inch blade, dating from around 1790, just possibly a modern copy.



 Attachment: 36.9 KB
naval dirk1.jpg


 Attachment: 53.38 KB
naval dirk3_eng_1790s.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Sa'ar Nudel




Location: Haifa, Israel
Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Likes: 16 pages

Posts: 361

PostPosted: Sun 03 Oct, 2010 6:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To my best knowledge, straight-bladed naval dirks do not go usualy with D-guards. It might has been a very rare combination, as most straight naval dirks I've seen have a short cross or 'S' guard. Those with a D-guard tend to have a very curved blade (they look like a miniature saber).
Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 4
Posts: 4,393

PostPosted: Sun 03 Oct, 2010 5:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a naval dirk with a D guard, but with a curved blade


 Attachment: 19.51 KB
coronetdirkoundr2007.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Dmitry Z~G




Location: USA
Joined: 22 Jun 2008

Posts: 77

PostPosted: Sun 03 Oct, 2010 7:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
Here is a naval dirk with a D guard, but with a curved blade


I am an avid naval dirk collector [the massive fighting dirk on the first pictures in this thread belongs to me, and was made by Knubley of London, ca.1795].
The curved thing above is not a naval dirk. It's a composite of a poor imitation of a Russian dragoon model shashka hilt with a curved blade, perhaps made in the Middle East in the not so distant past.

Regarding the d-guard naval dirks with a straight blade (or curved blade, for that matter}, they don't exist, imho. I've seen a couple of pieces with a stirrup hilts and curved blades that were ascribed to Spanish naval officers, but I was not convinced. Generally speaking, naval dirks did not have a closed loop knuckle bows. The example by Knubley, pictured above is a rare exception, and it doesn't have a D-guard.

To answer the topic-starter's question, the closest you will get is a M1917 US trench-fighting knife, pictured below.

Just my $0.02


View user's profile Send private message
Sa'ar Nudel




Location: Haifa, Israel
Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Likes: 16 pages

Posts: 361

PostPosted: Mon 04 Oct, 2010 1:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maybe a picked example of a Confederate D-guard Bowie will do better.
Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Ben Potter
Industry Professional



Location: Western Idaho
Joined: 29 Sep 2008

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Wed 06 Oct, 2010 9:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the help. I guess I'll have to look at small swords or hangers for hilt designs then.
Ben Potter Bladesmith

It's not that I would trade my lot
For any other man's,
Nor that I will be ashamed
Of my work torn hands-

For I have chosen the path I tread
Knowing it would be steep,
And I will take the joys thereof
And the consequences reap.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Dmitry Z~G




Location: USA
Joined: 22 Jun 2008

Posts: 77

PostPosted: Wed 06 Oct, 2010 8:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What exactly are you looking for?
View user's profile Send private message
Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 4
Posts: 4,393

PostPosted: Wed 06 Oct, 2010 11:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben Potter wrote:
Thanks for the help. I guess I'll have to look at small swords or hangers for hilt designs then.


Get a copy of George C. Neumann's Swords and Blades of the American Revolution It has many photos of original hangers and smallswords (and lots of other blade weapons).
View user's profile Send private message
Ben Potter
Industry Professional



Location: Western Idaho
Joined: 29 Sep 2008

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 10:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am making a long naval style dirk (18" straight blade, deep fuller double edged tip) and would like to make it as authentic as possible with a D or shell guard. I think I may opt for a cuttoe (spelling as I saw some hunting swords/cuttoes that would fit the bill nicely.

I have look at the at book in that past for other projects and have it on request at the library, thanks for the reminder.

Ben Potter Bladesmith

It's not that I would trade my lot
For any other man's,
Nor that I will be ashamed
Of my work torn hands-

For I have chosen the path I tread
Knowing it would be steep,
And I will take the joys thereof
And the consequences reap.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 4
Posts: 4,393

PostPosted: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 12:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Speaking of cuttoes, I really like this one, 31" overall, dating from 1736. Also, there are a lot of good looking cuttoes in Neumann's book


 Attachment: 74.74 KB
1736.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,968

PostPosted: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 12:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Ben

What you seem to be describing would fit for cuttoe and there is a nice online book to thumb through
http://swordlinks.com/courtswords/intro.html

More a straight hanger/hunting/cuttoe type of thing mebbe.

Cheers

GC
View user's profile Send private message
Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 4
Posts: 4,393

PostPosted: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 12:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another online resource is Hermann Historica. Look at the recent auctions sections - http://www.hermann-historica.de/gb/index_alte_auktionen.htm - see the hunting hangers and sabers section Auctions 48 to 59.


 Attachment: 8.12 KB
hh hanger.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 12:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The National Maritime Museum (UK) has some great examples of dirks and hangers in their online collections:

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/explore/inde...gedweapons

What time period are you going for?
View user's profile Send private message
Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 4
Posts: 4,393

PostPosted: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 2:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathan, I looked in that Maritime Museum collection and came up with a D-Guard dirk, though an odd one - USA, 1862, with a 14.5 inch blade. It looks like someone combined a dirk blade with a saber hilt.


 Attachment: 19.9 KB
dirk usa1862.jpg


 Attachment: 21.04 KB
dirk usa1862b.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Dmitry Z~G




Location: USA
Joined: 22 Jun 2008

Posts: 77

PostPosted: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 2:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is not a naval dirk. It's 'something' that's good enough for ebay, but not for the NMM.
View user's profile Send private message
Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 4
Posts: 4,393

PostPosted: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 2:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dmitry Z~G wrote:
This is not a naval dirk. It's 'something' that's good enough for ebay, but not for the NMM.


Dmitry, are you saying this is a modern forgery? I'm a little confused, because I found this item at the NMM website - http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/explore/object.cfm?ID=WPN1193 - Are you saying that all 68 dirks listed there are not originals, but are modern copies - or just that one?
View user's profile Send private message
Dmitry Z~G




Location: USA
Joined: 22 Jun 2008

Posts: 77

PostPosted: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 8:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
Are you saying that all 68 dirks listed there are not originals, but are modern copies - or just that one?


That made me chuckle. Yes, they're all fake, and I wouldn't mind having most of those fakes in my collection.

Regarding the 'dirk' in question, I saw it before, of course. It's not a forgery, since it doesn't replicate any historical piece. It's a kinder sabel, i.e. a child's toy.
View user's profile Send private message
Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 4
Posts: 4,393

PostPosted: Fri 08 Oct, 2010 9:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I persist (perhaps wrongheadedly) in thinking that this might be some junior Union Naval officer's folly, putting together two things that don't really belong with each other. However, in another thread, Jonathan Hopkins praises you as a weapons expert, so maybe I should defer to your knowledge. If the U.K. National Maritime Museum mistakenly lists this item as a Naval Dirk made in 1862, I think you should contact them and tell them that it is a modern(?) child's toy.
View user's profile Send private message
Timo Nieminen




Location: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 08 May 2009
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 1,504

PostPosted: Fri 08 Oct, 2010 2:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Q: What is the difference between a naval dirk and a child's toy?
A: It depends on the age of the midshipman!

Or, more seriously, to what extent are the various child's swords military equipment for children? (Or at least for those young soldiers/sailors/etc who we would consider children today.)

"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Naval Dirks
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum