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Christopher Punty
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 Posted: Fri 08 Oct, 2010 9:29 am Post subject: |
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It definitely looks like fun. Its definatly not "SCA safe" but I don't think its really as unsafe as it looks. I've done some rebated steel Jomsviking style fighting and its not that bad as long as no one gets stupid. I'd be completely comfortable doing Battle of nations, wearing well made late 14th century kit.
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Augusto Boer Bront
Industry Professional
Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Posts: 294
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Fri 08 Oct, 2010 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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In fairness that does happen in pretty much every sport at one time or another.
Just questions of why and how often.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Fri 08 Oct, 2010 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe Fults wrote: | In fairness that does happen in pretty much every sport at one time or another.
Just questions of why and how often. |
Some blind side hits i.e. cheap shots happen too often in hockey and in the news there was a case of a very bad hit where the kid may not recover the use of hit legs ( Too soon to tell and we can all hope for the best for the kid or young adult player ).
Last year another case like this ruined a promising career for a young player who has only partially recovered.
I think a few deaths have also occurred over the years.
So we can say that really bad accidents happen in many sports even when everything is done according to the rules but at time excess testosterone and and immature and irresponsible attitude cause accidents that should never have happened: There is always a difference between the normal risks assumed by participants in a sport and " jerk behaviour " where aggressive actions are done thoughtlessly or worse by a moment of naked aggression i.e. real violence instead of controlled even if rough competition.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Augusto Boer Bront
Industry Professional
Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Posts: 294
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sat 09 Oct, 2010 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| Augusto Boer Bront wrote: | Yes, but the objective of this "sport" is to maim the opponent and hurt it with steel weapons untill it falls.
It's a bit different from the other non combact sports. |
Hurting and maiming may happen if it's done with wild abandon with zero restraint and an over aggressive " win at all cost attitude " but even if risky and looking very violent I don't think that the goal is to hurt or kill so much as win by throwing down the opponents and maybe knocking them out.
If the goal was really to maim and there where no rules or " unwritten rules " they would be using sharps and have 10% dead on the winning side and 80% dead on the losing side.
So it's a very high contact sport with a potential for someone getting carried away and hit someone in a very dangerous manner if they lack judgement and restraint ! I also assume a certain internal culture where a real " JERK " would be banned from future events i.e. proven psychos don't belong in this kind of sport or martial art/simulated fighting. There are acceptable risks which may exceed what most of use would find acceptable but then not all of us would accept the risks of mountain climbing or race car racing or full contact MMA etc ....
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Kel Rekuta
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| Posted: Sat 09 Oct, 2010 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| Augusto Boer Bront wrote: | Yes, but the objective of this "sport" is to maim the opponent and hurt it with steel weapons untill it falls.
It's a bit different from the other non combact sports. |
Nah, it would be as easy to kill someone with a hockey stick or polo mallet, if one had a mind to do so. Sportsmanship and respect for player safety are what make any potentially lethal activity safer to engage in. Don't play with people who don't understand your rules, whatever they may be. We fight full speed - full contact rebated steel combat to submission. Since we wear complete and period appropriate harness and use blunt weapons, there is little chance for injury or death. Its up to the skill and control of the players to keep it that way. The only severe injury we have encountered in ten years of this was to a person with limited skills who neglected to tie down a critical part of his mail correctly. He is intensely supervised now, whether he realizes it or not. Flukes happen, we have to accept it or leave the toys on the wall. His mistakes won't happen again.
That said, I've played with some of the Ukrainian guys. Its just bash and smash, there is no technique because their rules don't encourage it. They are happy with their game and have no interest in changing it.
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Mihai Ionita
Location: Romania Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Mon 11 Oct, 2010 7:19 am Post subject: |
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How do their rules not encourage techniques? Can you explain this part of what you've said?
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 11 Oct, 2010 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Mihai Ionita wrote: | | How do their rules not encourage techniques? Can you explain this part of what you've said? |
Just guessing but if they only fall down or are defeated by what is really happening with their rebated weapons they might be ignoring or not reacting realistically to what would have been killing or crippling blow if sharp weapons where being used.
In a lot of simulated fighting there are uncertainties about what would have happened with a real weapon but those interested in the martial art rather than in winning a competition will conceded defeat if they receive a blow that would have killed them in a real fight but only gave them a light push with a simulated weapon because blows are pulled for safety reasons or blows are stopped short of touching. ( In the reality of the brawl these light blows or menacing thrusts do absolutely nothing and are ignored, the fighters on the other hand " lose " when they get knocked over or knocked out in what is basically a pushing competition ).
In other words one tries to imagine what would have happened in a real fight and concede defeat when defeat seems to be the most probable outcome rather than fighting on and on and not concede defeat until six people fall on top of you.  
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Michal Plezia
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 01 Apr, 2011 6:45 am Post subject: |
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Well I'm not a regular "buhurt warrior", but I did it a few times. Actually the rule that you are "killed" only when you fall down makes this sport (yes, IMHO it is a sport not reenactment) less dangerous. With a proper defence equipement it is hard to knock down your opponent with blows, so mostly people use wrestling techniques and something that is called "the tram" ( basically you run at your enemy at full speed from behind or side and push him, usually it is enough for him to fall down).
And in massive battles there are some tactics and formations. In my opinion better formation skills(and more pollearms) is the reason why our eastern brothers usually win with us ,Poles, on the Grunwald buhurts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcEMLFGsY_E (not the best quality movie)
Well I can tell you- it is fun( especially when you survive the full force halberd blow on your helmet ) What I don't like in this sport is that the equipement evolved to match the reqiurements, and in many cases it hasn't much in common with real medieval stuff. For example: coat of plates with a few cm space between plates- since thrusts are prohibited it offers good protection against blows and is much much ligter than historically acurate armour. And of course buhurts are the best way to destroy your kit , so many choose not to use their expensive reenactment armour.
You say it is dangerous. Well there are only adaults allowed. It is their choice, their risk. I respect that.
www.elchon.com
Polish Guild of Knifemakers
The sword is a weapon for killing, the art of the sword is the art of killing. No matter what fancy words you use or what titles you put to
it that is the only truth.
Last edited by Michal Plezia on Sat 02 Apr, 2011 7:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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Bryce Felperin
Location: San Jose, CA Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 552
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| Posted: Fri 01 Apr, 2011 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like Rugby with armor...and weapons. :-)
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 01 Apr, 2011 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Once upon a time I thought it was cool to engage in dangerous activities with like-minded fools, for no tangible benifit other than a false boosting of my own ego. Thankfully I outgrew that impulse long ago, apparently some never do. This kind of activity achieves nothing positive for our larger community and I sincerely hope it stays on the other side of the pond.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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John Coris
Location: European Union Joined: 11 Feb 2011
Posts: 33
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Quinn W.
Location: Bellingham, WA Joined: 02 May 2009
Posts: 197
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| Posted: Fri 01 Apr, 2011 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Michal Plezia wrote: | Well I'm not a regular "buhurt warrior", but I did it a few times. Actually the rule that you are "killed" only when you fall down makes this sport (yes, IMHO it is a sport not reenactment) less dangerous. With a proper defence equipement it is hard to knock down your opponent with blows, so mostly people use wrestling techniques and something that is called "the tram" ( basically you run at your enemy at full speed from behind or side and push him, usually it is enough for him to fall down).
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If that's the case, and kills are determined only by knockdown, it seems the rules would make it such that the most effective warrior on the field could well be the one who goes into battle without any weapons at all.
"Some say that the age of chivalry is past, that the spirit of romance is dead. The age of chivalry is never past, so long as there is a wrong left unredressed on earth"
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Michal Plezia
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 02 Apr, 2011 12:45 am Post subject: |
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Unfortunately on most events rules don't allow fighting without weapons, and loosing it during battle is sometimes also a kill. (so I wasn't precise that only collapsing eliminates you- in fact there are no universal rules, any organiser can change it, but those are most common)
www.elchon.com
Polish Guild of Knifemakers
The sword is a weapon for killing, the art of the sword is the art of killing. No matter what fancy words you use or what titles you put to
it that is the only truth.
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Till J. Lodemann
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| Posted: Sat 02 Apr, 2011 7:49 am Post subject: |
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So, I also have participated in a similar action in Lithuania, but normally I prefer one on one tournaments.
Yet I think this is a fairly accurate simulation of a medieval melee tournament on foot. So I think one could call that a reenactment sport.
As Michal has said, it is not as bloody as some might think. It's fairly save, too.
The difference to most western modern medieval fighting sports is that the goal here is to limit the danger of injury and death not by restricting the actions of the combatants but mainly by the use of protective armour. Naturally, there are rules, too. Thrusting is forbidden and the use of arms is mandatory and one is out of the game if one falls down.
Fighting this way in armour is extremely exhaustive, especially in summer and the participants train a lot; more then most of the blossfechters I know.
Coordinated group attacks are difficult in this kind of mass combat. The bigger bohurts are held with many different groups in a team, sometimes with people speaking different languages. The auditory and visual perception is limited and confused by the own armour and the cries of the men and the clashes of weapons and armour. The outcome looks fairly chaotic, but it's difficult to change that.
It is really not ment to be a reenactment of a real battle. The word "buhurt" in middle high german meant a sportive mass fight tournament, a kind of battle training, and this is what the people in the video want to do.
Here are some other videos of full contact fighting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-6GLORfF8k&feature=related
english language teaser of the Chotyn tournament 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeI8capzuqs&feature=related
another russian video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEHZA9XMPiI
A one-on-one torunament fight at Byczyna in Poland last year.
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Vytautas Z
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| Posted: Mon 04 Apr, 2011 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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I have seen buhurts of the later period 'live' only a couple of times. (I prefer earlier periods) Because of the amount of armour worn, and the rules, they are pretty safe in theory. The biggest danger in buhurts are the so called 'MacLeods' from the Highlander series. People who believe they are invincible and do not drop to the ground even when greatly outnumbered... I mean, OK the rules are no stabs say, but in reality, you would have been stabbed long time ago in such a situation...[There seem to be buhurts with thrusts in Russia (wooden weapons however) any Russians here to comment about them?]
As for authenticity, it is often violated for the sake of safety, the so called 'buhurt optimization' (addition of non historical parts of protection (at best they are made from more or less authetic material)). So one should admire these with care...
As for 1v1 tournaments, I really do not see the point fighting without thursts with (especially one handed) swords when one is reenacting later periods (especially XVth century, where thrusting was the most (if not only) way of killing with a sword). One can admire the physical preparation required to bout for so long, but certainly, not for historical techniques. (Bashing plate armour with a sword is hardly useful (well OK, a longsword could cause some damage...))
I believe, that it is possible to allow thrusts in 1v1 tournaments since they are faaaaaaar more controlled then mindless buhurts...But that would take a lot of time and constrains on ones armour.
Oh, and if you look at the longsword part, complete waste of swords.
As for deaths, I personally have not heard of any death incidents in eastern Europe. I have heard about a crippling injury in Russia, but it was not accidental(spine injury...)
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Kurt Scholz
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| Posted: Tue 05 Apr, 2011 5:49 am Post subject: |
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I'm not very experienced in historical fencing, but I think it's possible that they exchanged some words before striking, like: "Attention poleaxe!" - "OK." because these poleaxe strikes appear to be timed moves.
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Robert Hinds
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| Posted: Tue 05 Apr, 2011 7:05 am Post subject: |
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It appears to me that what they do over there is a good simulation of a medieval tourney (or battle, but those were probably more organized). In that it is at least partially historical as they are participating in a sport from 700 years ago.
Personally I think it's awesome, even if it's not totally historical. I mean none of the WMA/SCA/Reenactment sparring/battles are totally historical anyway, otherwise we would have quite a few dead swordsmen. By participating in this they are showing what some might call stupidity for engaging in such a combat. But others might call it something else; by participating in this they are pretty much participating in an armed tourney. According to Geoffroi De Charny a tourney is second in worth to actually fighting in war. So if these guys want to risk some injury at a chance to gain honour it is their choice. They are following in the footsteps (in a way) of the Knights who a lot on this forum revere very much. If it is not historical in equipment then it is historical in spirit.
I know this doesn't answer the OP's question but just thought I'd throw it out there. Just 'cause it's dangerous doesn't mean its stupid. Driving a car, rock climbing and skiing are all probably as much (if not more) dangerous as this sport. Think where we would be if no one continued trying to fly because it was stupid and dangerous? O.K. I guess there is a bit of a difference here but still. 
I'd rather have a well worn and battle damaged harness than a shiny suit of metal that sits in the corner unused.
"Young knight, learn to love God and revere women; thus your honor will grow. Practice knighthood and learn the Art that dignifies you, and brings you honor in wars." -Johannes Liechtenauer
"...And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one..." Luke 22:36
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This is a standard topic
