[Jean Henri Chandler]

I definitely think you should contact them, your group in Alaska (and the associated broadsword group) is an important part of the HEMA scene, it should be part of the record. I'm sure they would make an exception for your group policies, ours is actually the same nobody pays dues formally but everyone contributes equipment and pitches in to host instructors and etc.

J

[Greg Mele]

I suspect a survey conducted by North Americans would be more slanted to North America and that by a European toward Europeans - not because of any intention, just because of whom is likely to see it. I know Roger, so I replied, but for example, the survey says that Canada has 9 clubs and 140 members in total - half of them in AEMMA.

Sadly, this misses Devon Boorman's "Academie Duello", which has over 200 members all by itself, and is the largest single location group, professional school and training locale of which I know:

http://www.academieduello.com/

So, right there you more than double the number of members in Canada. If we look at the listing, two of the groups gave listings but not membership numbers (and the AES has several chapters), and there are at least two other groups not listed of that I know of myself, way down here in the States.

Same with the Mexican groups - only one listed a membership number: 11 people. There are at least two groups that I know of missing from the list, and I know that one of the groups that *is* listed has about 40 members.

All of this before we get to the USA, where many groups are not listed, many that are have no numbers posted (such as most of the Selohaar branches, or the Academia della Spada, which is fairly large itself0, and so forth. So the survey is interesting, but is really only a work in progress.

I think the larger issue is that ANY survey right now will be incomplete, because it is not as if the community is so universally tied together to even know of such surveys. And then there is the question of what = a WMA practitioner in the first place?

[Ruel A. Macaraeg]

[Craig Shackleton]

I'm not on that list. My membership has fluctuated frequently over the last ten years. One reason I never bother to respond to surveys like that is that my answers could be invalid within a few months.

And... right now I have four kids classes per week (soon to be six) for about 50 (soon to be ~75) kids actively participating in my programs. Do they count?

To complicate matters, the vast majority of them are kids I was contracted to teach by home-school associations or enrichment programs, so they aren't really members. But they are doing the same program as the kids that take lessons directly through my organization. Do they still count? I'm not as big as Academie Duello, but 75 kids is a significant portion of the Canadian HEMA scene, assuming they are considered to actually be part of it.

Plus, in addition to me and the two groups listed on that site in Ottawa, there is another guy in Ottawa who teaches through a local community college and city programs. I don't know what his numbers are currently, but they used to always be pretty big.

And, I gotta say, there are some SCA folks around who are pretty hardcore HEMA practitioners and not affiliated with any of the four non-SCA groups.

I'm sure there are similar stories all over North America and Europe, and elsewhere too.

EDIT: One other thing that follows on Greg's comment about the WMA/HEMA community not being so tight that folks will even know of such a survey. I, obviously, am aware of the larger HEMA community to some degree. Almost none of my students (adults included) have any interest at all in finding out about it. They don't have any aversion, they just have no interest. I suspect most groups are kind of similar. The hobby costs enough without adding international travel to the bill.

[Roger Norling]

Hi everyone!
I just stumbled across this thread and thought I would say hi...

My name is Roger Norling and I am a member of Gothenburg Historical Fencing School in Sweden. I also run the Hroarr site and its polearms board, and I am responsible for the Hema census that has been discussed here. Some of you already know me.

I appologize for taking up so much space in this thread, but I felt that a few clarifications regarding the survey needed to be made.

The survey was initiated as a result of various díscussions regarding how many practitioners there are worldwide, but since people had difficulties in agreeing on how and what to measure, I made the decision to pick up on the suggestion to count how many paying practitioners there are worldwide right now. This is not perfect, since not all clubs have yearly member fees, but it will do, since what we are really after is an estimate on the whole community. And at least something is done. Most clubs also seem to have yearly membership fees.

This number, we can use when discussing with manufacturers like Allstar, Brine, Leon Paul, Gait and others. For instance, this survey tells us that we probably are at least the size of 4% of the US Lacrosse market and thus represent a pretty big market opportunity. Since a lot of us like the Brine Supercrosse gloves and Gait Mayhems, that might persuade these companies to continue producing them, or even improve on them. Or, lure another company into producing Hema specific gear. The KnightShop is well on their way and there are other manufacturers showing an interest as well like the Italian Negrini and the German Allstar.

Another issue is what defines a practitioner of HEMA/WMA? The borders can be fine between SCA, Reenactors and HEMA/WMA sometimes. Add to that stage fighters in Slovakia who study the same manuscripts and practitioners of traditions that may not even be aware of being "HEMA", like Juego Del Palo, Bastone Siciliano, La Canne etc. I have included Jogo Do Pau, since Master Luis Preto actively works with the Hema Community and also Slovakian Stage fighters, since according to Slovakian Hema fencers about a quarter of all Slovakian stage fighters actually do HEMA/WMA.

Regarding the numbers, I am now up to 56% complete, but I still lack responses from quite a few clubs. 46 clubs haven't even been contacted yet, which amounts to about 15% of the total numbers of clubs. This, since some have no contact info online, some use time-consuming online forms, some are tied up in larger organisations like ARMA and some may not want to make their numbers public. On top of that, some are simply unknown to me. A rare few (2) have expressed that they do not want to participate, which I fully respect.
However, more and more are joining. Canadian Academi Duello was added a few weeks ago and Slovenian and Mexican groups have been added as well. Of the contacted clubs about 65-70% have responded, which is good. I hope to get about 80% of all the community represented in the end.

I don't think I have had more responses from Europe due to personal relationships or involvements in any organizations, as has been suggested. I am simply not known to others or involved in any larger association. I also participate in several international boards like SwordForum, ARMA, The Hema Alliance, The Western Martial Arts Coalition and Schola Gladiatoria.
However, the UK and the US lack quite a few responses, the Tattershall, Selohaar and Schola San Marco in particular. Of the to me known US groups, about 40 lack numbers, which is the same for the European groups, coincidentally.

Looking at the survey the numbers are divided accordingly:

Australia & New Zealand: 96
Europe:4057
Canada: 358
US: 760
Mexico: 29
South America: 8
Africa: 28
Asia: 155

I doubt that we will be seeing 10 000 active and paying practitioners in the US though. It sounds like a lot for about 40 remaining clubs to contact or receive response from. In total, worldwide, it seems reasonable to expect about 10,000 paying practitioners per year and it seems to be growing quite healthily. Of course the number of people who have tried HEMA/WMA is a lot higher, but not really relevant I think.

Here it is again: http://www.hroarr.com/survey/worldwide/practitioners/

[Roger Norling]

And a more direct response.

David and Craig, your problems with how to count members come up every now and then, since not everyone has regular membership fees. My advise is to try to count those who have practiced at least three times this year. In GHFS we have regular members who for personal reasons do not group practice for months at a time, but return eventually.
Also, since we have practice 2 times per week for beginners and 3 times per week for advanced students, alongside of study groups and classes in pugilism, sabre, sword&buckler and staff weapons with many members taking part in several of these classes, counting "active" members can be complicated... So, only counting members at a pratice is not a fair number either.
Some members only practice a few times and never return, but at the same time we gain an equal number of new students regularly so those negate each other statistically.
No matter how we choose to count, there will be problems. But again, it is the estimate for the whole community that is interesting and important.

I welcome everyone to contribute! If you feel that your continent, country, association or club is not represented well, then please let me know so I can correct this. If you know of more clubs, then give me some info and I will add them straight away. I am sure there are a lot of clubs both in the US and Europe that aren't listed yet. So please give me a hand here. If you think that the survey is a good idea, then please let other unlisted clubs know of this as well.

I run the Hroarr site on a non-profit basis with the purpose of aiding the Hema community in the hopes that it will grow and develop, simply because I love the fencing. That is all. With a little help from you it can hopefully get better at serving this purpose.

[Craig Shackleton]

Roger,

Thank you for the clarification, update, and for all your work for our community.

[Roger Norling]

Thanks, but it is the transcribers, the translators, the researchers, the instructors and the practitioners who together do all the really hard work.

I have added your club to my list now. If you wish to add some details, then just let me know.

[John H]