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Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Tue 17 Aug, 2010 1:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, I agree. When comparing the indian mail with the real deal, I always notice that the rings of the real mail are thicker and that the ratio of wire thickness and internal ring diameter is different. Real mail seems to have smaller "gaps" and is less see-through.

Current mail goes for around 500 Euro or so for a hauberk. I'd love to see a more accurate product at, say, the 800-1000 price point (not that I have that kind of money laying around...)
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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
Joined: 16 Nov 2008

Posts: 677

PostPosted: Tue 17 Aug, 2010 2:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sander Marechal wrote:
... Current mail goes for around 500 Euro or so for a hauberk. I'd love to see a more accurate product at, say, the 800-1000 price point (not that I have that kind of money laying around...)


I know I'd find a way to get some money to have lying around so that I could! Laughing Out Loud

Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
Founder of The Van Dieman's Land Stage Gladiators.
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Mark Hale




Location: Cardiff, UK
Joined: 15 Sep 2006

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sun 24 Oct, 2010 2:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi there

a little late and not sure if you have managed to sort things out, but only just come across the post.

As already mentioned by a post earlier, the guy who does a great deal of the tailoring work for me @ Cap-a-pie here in the UK, is Gavin Jones (mailletailor.co.uk, he does a very good ventail, The image attached is from a Forth Armoury coif which was supplied as a kit to Gavin some time ago now and he has since added a ventail, made from Gavins own research, to this. Afraid the photo doesn't really give it justice as its hard to pick out the tailored chin pouch which is really important to get the fit. But it is there.

Gavin and myself have been spending a great deal of time looking at historical illustrations and speaking to curators of maille over this side of the pond, as both of us are trying to get as close as we can to originals whilst trying to keep things in budget for the majority of re enactors. Yes we are well aware of the inadequacies of "modern maille" and I totally agree with Dan's comments, but hope the tailoring service with integrated coif and mittens with hauberks will spur folk on to try and get to the "next level" so to speak.

Certainly if you haven't managed to sort out the ventail yet, then please drop Gavin a line, he is in the process of putting together a portfolio of tailoring work and will be adding that to my website and Gavins soon.

Mark


www.capapie.co.uk
www.mailletailor.co.uk

Pete Vanderzwet wrote:
Thanks for the quick replies. Icefalcon's top quality mail looks decent, but for the 12th century I'm looking for an attached coif with an accurate ventail; something I've only seen Erik do properly. Hopefully I'm not aware of other vendors that sell this, and someone can point me in the right direction. I'm worried I might be forced to make my own, and I don't have a lot of confidence in my tailoring abilities, lol.



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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Sun 24 Oct, 2010 7:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Unless you are doing testing on mail armour there are plenty of riveted mail products that are on the market now that look close enough and should work for educational display and reenactment. There is a variety of authentic mail armour to look at for a guide so go ahead and compare them and see what fits your budget. No one should have to own a fortune 500 company to do reenactment, though it would certainly help, and in some ways you'd get an item closer to the originals. Once you get to that point of insanity things start getting a bit extreme. In the end few of us have real fiefs and peasants working our lands for rent so I think there is no reason to go into poverty for the highest level mail shirt on the market. That said if someone is trying to do accurate testing on mail the specimen should be as close to the original as possible.

Personally I am just glad butted mail is disappearing from living history slowly but surely. I have a few hauberks and coifs that are butted and at need I can throw them into use but even cheaper riveted mail to me is heads and shoulders above the butted stuff out there, in display and use.

Not to knock Eric's work at all as it is fantastic and ultimately I'd love to own one of his hauberks but it is a niche market and I am fairly sure he is aware of it and fine with that. I think very few high end mail makers expect this will ever change or expect most LH members to make such a purchase as the only way to get it that way is by hand and good techniques which make it very expensive, same goes with most such gear.

So my advice it too look and see how close you can get but not to worry about getting something that is not 100%. Get as close as you can and do it. You might decide to save some cash and buy one in the future and I'd say that is a decent system. I made several butted shirts and decided after using them for years I could not stand fighting and using them anymore as they were always needing repair and work. My riveted shirt has popped 0 links in 2 years and my coif has lost one.

There are a few other European high end mail makers but I could not say if they were still in production or not.

RPM
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Mon 25 Oct, 2010 12:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeremy V. Krause wrote:
Well i you have $20,000 or so laying around why not go with Erick?!? Wink


Not so!

Allow me to quote Erik himself:

Quote:
As of right now I'll soon be offering haubergeons for approximately $950. This is for a 50" chest and a 31" hem. More details will be forthcoming. This is for an all-riveted garment made with flattened links. The links are made my way, not like your average mass-produced Indian mail that everyone else is offering...

...I should be receiving the first pieces in a few weeks. I will be attending the Minnesota Renaissance Festival once I have them, so if anyone is in the area please come out and see them. The cost for the shirts has increased in price to around $1,450, due to specific construction details that have been added.

To put this in perspective, a shirt of this quality would have cost around $8,000 using my old pricing and would have taken a year to produce. Now you can have one much sooner and much cheaper.


http://www.erikds.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=51
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Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Oct, 2010 7:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeremy V. Krause wrote:
Why not just not buy ANY mail. It's not as if it's required to assemble a quality kit. Certainly not every armed man owned the stuff. Perhaps most did not. If I ever put together a kit from the later 11th. C. I would just not have mail. Just do with cloth protection, which indeed can be done well, though itself commanding a significant cost. Quality isn't cheap. .


Fair attitude if you are LARPing or stick fighting. Play hard with rebated steel and the necessity of riveted mail is readily apparent. Cloth armour has to be extremely well made to resist even blunt metal weapons. The cost of that quality of textile harness might be greater than any riveted mail off the shelf from a dozen or more vendors. The mail won't look right to the educated eye but it will resist rebated weapons. Most textile products sold to the re-enactment market wouldn't survive a thrust from a rebated steel sword, hence neither would the wearer.

Jeremy V. Krause wrote:
I don't get why so many folks opt for the admittedly very ahistorical mail anyway- especially when said very ahistorical mail can cost hundreds of dollars. It's just not much "bang for your buck".

I'm thankful for folks like Dan are here to tell it like it is. Otherwise, I could have easily been fooled into thinking that the riveted stuff was fairly close to historical specimens.


Yes Dan's vigilence and tireless dissemination of armour fact is a generous service to armour buffs on many forae. Just remember there is a difference between accuracy for living history presentation and functional safe armour standards that approximate medieval technology. How many of you collectors have forged blades lining your walls versus attractive blades created by stock removal from a homogenous billet of modern alloys? The sharp ones still cut, don't they? Razz
Why get stuffy about imported riveted mail, then? It serves a purpose, even if it isn't museum quality reproduction.
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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
Joined: 16 Nov 2008

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PostPosted: Mon 25 Oct, 2010 7:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
...
Quote:
As of right now I'll soon be offering haubergeons for approximately $950. This is for a 50" chest and a 31" hem. More details will be forthcoming. This is for an all-riveted garment made with flattened links. The links are made my way, not like your average mass-produced Indian mail that everyone else is offering...

...I should be receiving the first pieces in a few weeks. I will be attending the Minnesota Renaissance Festival once I have them, so if anyone is in the area please come out and see them. The cost for the shirts has increased in price to around $1,450, due to specific construction details that have been added.

To put this in perspective, a shirt of this quality would have cost around $8,000 using my old pricing and would have taken a year to produce. Now you can have one much sooner and much cheaper.
...


*Looks at exchange rate between AUS $ and US $*
Well, looks like a tent, weet-bix and water from here on out.
(Get Maille-Tailer maille, use it whilst saving up for Erik's).
*Manly tear of joy*

Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
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Mike G





Joined: 21 Oct 2010

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PostPosted: Mon 25 Oct, 2010 12:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,
Please can you tell me your opinion about this piece ? It is a copy from a original one late 15th.

Best regards
Mike
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Mike G





Joined: 21 Oct 2010

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PostPosted: Mon 25 Oct, 2010 1:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I forgot the picture of the masterring Wink

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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Oct, 2010 1:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

FWIW I don't have a problem with the riveted mail being sold by many vendors. As has been said, it is better than the butted mail that used to be used. My problem is with people who claim that this mail is historcally accurate or suitable for weapons testing.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Oct, 2010 1:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mike G wrote:
Hello,
Please can you tell me your opinion about this piece ? It is a copy from a original one late 15th.

The tailoring might be ok but the links themselves don't look much like any museum example I've ever seen. Do you have a photo of the original?
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Mike G





Joined: 21 Oct 2010

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PostPosted: Mon 25 Oct, 2010 2:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,
Sorry but my english is very poor. What do you mean with " the links " Do you mean the piece where the bolt fits ?

The problem is, most of the original mail shirts are hundred of years old. They never look like the day they where made.

Here is a picture from my original mail shirt. It is a swiss one late 15.th I bought it 5 years ago. The rivets are " rounded " from the movement.



I have a picture from the original mail collar, but it is only a poor copy from a book from 1930s. I will post a picture nect time but you can´ see the rings very well.
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Oct, 2010 2:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
historically accurate or suitable for weapons testing.
( NOTE: Dan's full post meaning does say " NOT " suitable for weapons testing ).

I think one can do some tests giving some idea of what to expect from some form of " modern " riveted maille, but I agree the problems and arguments start when people then come to conclusions about the period maille being similar in how they would resist or not resist penetration.

Assuming that the period maille would be better protection one can sort of conclude that if modern, and assumed less effective maille, succeeds in stopping something it gives us a minimum base line of what the period maille could resist ?

If the modern maille fails it doesn't tell us anything about the period maille.

At best testing modern made maille not even close to the period maille gives us a ballpark idea of how protective maille might be but the margin of error is much too broad to come to any firm conclusions about the period stuff.

( Note: Even in period there might be some variability in quality of maille and even types of maille by period and application. Very fine small ring diameter maille purposed for a " secrète " or for voiders I would assume would be different than heavier maille used as a primary defense ? Not to mention the supposed " double maille ", whatever that might be from a tighter high density weave, to a special " unknown " weave pattern, to wearing two layers of maille ? ).

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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