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Jeremiah Swanger
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 Posted: Mon 05 Jul, 2004 3:50 pm Post subject: Carolingian-era Frankish swords |
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Hey guys,
Has anyone been successful in finding a picture of what swords of the Frankish Empire, between the 7th and 9th centuries, looked like?
I've considered ArmArt's "Veligrad" sword a possible representation, but I'd like to know if there's anything else out there? There's quite a bit on Scandinavian and Anglo-Saxon stuff, but very little on the Franks.
Thanks in advance!
"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."
- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
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James King
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| Posted: Mon 05 Jul, 2004 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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Swords of the 7 century would be of the typical later migration typeS (Behmer type IV hilts with Geibeg Type 1 blades).The 8 century was a time of transtion from migration types to the "Viking" types(Viking sword=frankish sword =Saxon sword) solid iron guards were replacing sandwiched metal/organic construction, the Geibeg types II and III blades are fully developed by the end of the century.Sword types were generaly the same all over Europe during the Carolingean period (the franks being the primary source for high quality blades).The only real difference would have been decoration.Frankish, Saxon , and Scandinavian art styles were slightly different .However Their was tremendus overlap thru trade etc.In short ,to grossly over simplify, if a sword hilt was decorated with plant motifs it probably was of Frankish origin, Animals meant a "viking"origin, combo of both Saxon.Also during the Caroligian period (late 8 early 9 century) most swords were decorated with simple geometric shapes inlade into the iron guards and pommel.Petersons Type K hilts are of Frankish origin(many decoration with floral motifs) but are very often found in "viking" contexts.The Albion "clontarf " is a copy of one of these swords.
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Jeremiah Swanger
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| Posted: Tue 06 Jul, 2004 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| James King wrote: | | Swords of the 7 century would be of the typical later migration typeS (Behmer type IV hilts with Geibeg Type 1 blades).The 8 century was a time of transtion from migration types to the "Viking" types(Viking sword=frankish sword =Saxon sword) solid iron guards were replacing sandwiched metal/organic construction, the Geibeg types II and III blades are fully developed by the end of the century.Sword types were generaly the same all over Europe during the Carolingean period (the franks being the primary source for high quality blades).The only real difference would have been decoration.Frankish, Saxon , and Scandinavian art styles were slightly different .However Their was tremendus overlap thru trade etc.In short ,to grossly over simplify, if a sword hilt was decorated with plant motifs it probably was of Frankish origin, Animals meant a "viking"origin, combo of both Saxon.Also during the Caroligian period (late 8 early 9 century) most swords were decorated with simple geometric shapes inlade into the iron guards and pommel.Petersons Type K hilts are of Frankish origin(many decoration with floral motifs) but are very often found in "viking" contexts.The Albion "clontarf " is a copy of one of these swords. |
Yeah, I had the basic layout of the swords figured out (Geibig Type 2), but swords of those centuries, as you point out, are *very* similar, the differences being primarily in decoration...
Petersen Type K, you say? Five-lobed pommels with straight guards, correct?
Do you know of any web pages or books that illustrate swords of the Carolingian dynasty (early 9th Century, I think?)?
Though it's definitely a fantasy-oriented piece, Jody Samson's Carolingian Sword was, according to Jody, inspired by some Frankish patterns of that time period... and it looks pretty close to a Petersen Type K...
Would that be a somewhat-representive hilt pattern? Or does it lean more toward the fantasy side of the design?
"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."
- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Tue 06 Jul, 2004 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know how accurate Osprey Pictures are. But David Nicolle put out a book on the Armies of Charlemagne that details Carolingian arms and armour. I forget the exact title but I'm sure it isn't hard to find. I saw it at Borders the other day.
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Roger Hooper
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Felix Wang
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| Posted: Tue 06 Jul, 2004 2:33 pm Post subject: Liber Maccabaeorum |
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The few images I have handy from the Carolingian period aren't very detailed, but suggest nothing very elaborate. The swords are shown as having short straight crosses and more or less round pommels. This one shows three swords: sheathed down below, near the hand of a fallen man in the center, and in the hand of a horseman, up top. Curiously, the horseman looks like he is fingering the sword, with his index finger along the blade.
 Attachment: 73 KB
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Tue 06 Jul, 2004 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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Oh I just remembered! When referring to Viking and Anglo-Saxon swords, Byzantine authors referred to them as "Frankish" or swords based on the Frankish pattern. So as was explained earlier there is probably a great deal of similarity between Carolingian swords and Viking ones.
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David McElrea
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| Posted: Tue 06 Jul, 2004 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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Alina Boyden wrote: | Quote: | | ...When referring to Viking and Anglo-Saxon swords, Byzantine authors referred to them as "Frankish" or swords based on the Frankish pattern. So as was explained earlier there is probably a great deal of similarity between Carolingian swords and Viking ones. |
You make an excellent point-- there is one thing that brings a degree of uncertainty to the premise, though (and please note that I am not arguing against any similarities between Viking/Anglo-Saxon and Frankish swords). The Byzantines used the term "Franks" as a collective term for all Northern Europeans-- at least around the time of the first Crusades. If you were English, Norman, French, German, Swedish, or Irish you were, colloquially at least, a "Frank". In referring to Viking swords as Frankish, then, it is possible that Byzantine writers meant simply "Western" swords. I'm not sure of the context, though, so you may very well be right. 
David
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Tue 06 Jul, 2004 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| David McElrea wrote: |
You make an excellent point-- there is one thing that brings a degree of uncertainty to the premise, though (and please note that I am not arguing against any similarities between Viking/Anglo-Saxon and Frankish swords). The Byzantines used the term "Franks" as a collective term for all Northern Europeans-- at least around the time of the first Crusades. If you were English, Norman, French, German, Swedish, or Irish you were, colloquially at least, a "Frank". In referring to Viking swords as Frankish, then, it is possible that Byzantine writers meant simply "Western" swords. I'm not sure of the context, though, so you may very well be right.
David |
No no. I agree completely. The Byzantines have a tendency to lump everyone together as beneath them. That's part of what makes reading them so amusing. However, if there was a radical difference between the swords of the Franks and those of other Germanic peoples, it wasn't remarked upon by the Byzantines.
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Jeremiah Swanger
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| Posted: Wed 04 Aug, 2004 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremiah Swanger wrote: |
Yeah, I had the basic layout of the swords figured out (Geibig Type 2), but swords of those centuries, as you point out, are *very* similar, the differences being primarily in decoration...
Petersen Type K, you say? Five-lobed pommels with straight guards, correct?
Do you know of any web pages or books that illustrate swords of the Carolingian dynasty (early 9th Century, I think?)?
Though it's definitely a fantasy-oriented piece, Jody Samson's Carolingian Sword was, according to Jody, inspired by some Frankish patterns of that time period... and it looks pretty close to a Petersen Type K...
Would that be a somewhat-representive hilt pattern? Or does it lean more toward the fantasy side of the design? |
Speaking of Petersen Type K hilts and their Frankish origins, I feel obligated to note that ArmArt now has a pattern-welded (Sutton Hoo-esque, herringbone-ish pattern...) blade fixed to a Petersen K and is labeled a Frankish sword. And, guess which particular Albion sword the ArmArt sword resembles...!
Perhaps Albion could make a 2-piece, bronze-hilted version of the Clontarf (complete with plant-motif decoration) and call it something like the Merovingian?
"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."
- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
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