Celtic swords -- myArmoury.com

Nathan Bell · Posted: Thu 06 May, 2004 5:45 am Post subject:

I think I see where the question was going re: Irish swords. It can be very, very frustrating trying to tease out the picture of the organic swords with so little evidence. At least on the continent, you have such large numbers of celtic, Roman, Iberian swords, etc. that you find a few with preserved hilts. With the North Scottish and Irish swords, it's pretty remarkable to have found as many organic components as we have---I think the total number of Irish Iron Age swords found to date still is under 50?

Also on the continent, we have funerary stelae and pottery and carvings which give us an inkling of rough form at times----even if it is often one culture trying to loosely depict a foreign one. In Ireland in the early Iron Age, nothing that I know of depicts the EIA sword in 2-D form (of course, it just might be my ignorance).

I'm not aware of any hollow cast or solid bronze (or stone, Iron, etc.) EIA hilts that appear to mimic the organic forms. Rafetry thought that the Ballykilmurray sword was perhaps a good rough guess. Although if this was either a model, or even a child's toy, I don't know how strictly it would adhere to the "real look" as I was saying earlier.

Kirk or John Spencer might know of more sources for the Irish material re: 2-D pictorial representations?

On the Cotterdale sword, I think it could be likely the pommel could have been turned either way. With the bronze capping the very butt of the pommel, we have a convergent look similar to the HOd Hill, and also similar to decoration found on some other Roman hilts---thinking here of the metallic decoration on the Republican era Delos gladius. The metal sort of fans out toward the grip, using the peen as the center point. But, the outlined shape of the bronze flipped the other way does look somewhat like other late Roman spathae, like the Koln...I could see it either way, really?

Kirk Lee Spencer · Posted: Sat 08 May, 2004 8:47 pm Post subject: Metal Hilts

I can not think of any LaTene swords from Ireland or Britain with metal hilts other than the anthropoid stuff. Not too many such continental finds either... that I know of.
The most famous is the Kirkburn sword. (I don't like the sword that much but it has a nice name.)
I have also seen a Celto-Iberian sword that seems to have some kind of metal plates attached to the hilt.
And there is one other with circular spacers much like the one posted earlier on this thread.

ks

Nathan Bell · Posted: Sat 08 May, 2004 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Hilts

Kirk Lee Spencer · Posted: Sun 09 May, 2004 6:29 am Post subject: More Metallic Hilts

Hi Nathan...

You're right. These hilts were not all-metallic. I thought the Kirkburn (Yorkshire England--not a continental find as I said in earlier post) was all metal and glass... thanks for the info on the horn surrounding elements... I wonder what the pommel and guard profiles would have looked like. Who knows, with these elements I might like the looks--It would balance out the hilt a little more I think.

Here is a link ( http://www.ffil.uam.es/equus/warmas/tipolog/fig01.html ) to a slide show from a museum in Spain. I have taken you into the slide show at my favorite Horse-Head Falcata... The rest of the show is well worth seeing.

Are these swords similar to the Iberian LaTene swords you mentioned Nathan?
They seem to be hybrids between the older anntena sword/daggers and the later earliest Celtic stuff?

ks

Nathan Bell · Posted: Sun 09 May, 2004 9:03 am Post subject: Re: More Metallic Hilts

Kirk Lee Spencer · Posted: Mon 10 May, 2004 6:24 am Post subject:

Nathan...

Actually it was a great description... I had just not thought to check dates on those types of swords or considered that they were as close to the ball-like LaTene hilts as they were to the antenna types.

By the way, do you know if the enamel we see on celtic sword, shields etc, was similar to modern enamel paint... Have you read how they made and applied this material.

Thanks

ks

Nathan Bell · Posted: Tue 11 May, 2004 4:08 am Post subject: Celtic enamel

Kirk Lee Spencer · Posted: Tue 11 May, 2004 6:21 am Post subject:

Thanks so much Nathan. That is exactly what I was looking for!

You are a great resource... I,m glad you're here.

ks

Kirk Lee Spencer · Posted: Sat 15 May, 2004 10:07 pm Post subject: Irish LaTene

Kirk Lee Spencer · Posted: Sat 15 May, 2004 10:13 pm Post subject:

Here is the last page...

ks

David McElrea · Posted: Wed 19 May, 2004 12:47 pm Post subject:

Hi Kirk,

Thanks very much for posting Rynne's article-- In fact I hadn't yet seen it. Sorry for the delayed response, as well. I'm in Norway (on my brother-in-laws computer) and haven't been online for a few days (two hundred and something posts since Iast signed in to myArmoury!).

Either way, fantastically helpful. Thanks again,

David

John Gage · Industry Professional

Great thread guys. I was so inspired by it i got to working on a custom celtic leaf blade. I had ordered some pattern weld billets and thought i would use one for this project. I have just finished forging the blade and an initial grind. I am still pondering the exact hilt and pommel design. The hilt will be of wood and bronze. I am considering mahogany, maple burl, walnut burl , Padouk or zebrawood. I am also cosidering fullers. Here are some pics of where im at. The billet, blade and possible hilt design.

11" Blade
17" overall

Kirk Lee Spencer · Posted: Sun 06 Jun, 2004 6:01 pm Post subject:

Hi John...

I have been out of my office for awhile so I did not see that there had been a response to this thread...

Looks like you have a great start there. I think I would use the mahogany. For some reason exotic or fancy burl woods just don't look right to me on these ancient swords (maybe I have seen too many art knives at the shows). Also a more simple wood in the hilt would not distract from the beautiful shape of the blade and the damascus patterns...
Be sure and post a picture when you are done.

Many of the early iron age swords had an anthropomophic hilt. I think that it looks good on smaller swords.
Most of these hilts are of solid bronze... like the urnfield bronze hilt you posted), yet the the upper and lower parts of the hilt are stretched out to look like arms and legs.

I think that many of the earliest iron swords with organic components to the hilt also had a more anthropomorphic look.

I found an archeological report where the researchers excavated around the carbonized remains of the hilt and then took a plaster cast of it. This gives a rare glimpse into what the geometry of one of these organic hilts may have looked like.
The image in the far right is all that would normally be found of such a hilt. The next picture to the right is the two pasts of the plaster casting. finally to the far right is a replica made from the shadowy information gained from the carbonized remains.

ks

Nathan Bell · Posted: Wed 09 Jun, 2004 4:27 am Post subject:

John Gage · Industry Professional

Hi Kirk,

I agree mahogany for the hilt would be the best choice. I like the hilt you have posted i just might use something like that design. I will post a few pics when im finished and would like to get your thoughts on it. Ive just setup my lathe and should have a gas forge built very shortly. Woohoo! I am so done with coal. This forum is an excellent place for a new artisan to get ideas and thoughts from very knowlegeable people.

Regards,
John

.

Kirk Lee Spencer

James King · Posted: Mon 14 Jun, 2004 9:56 pm Post subject: hilt development

OUTSTANDING Kirk! I believe this is one of the most informative threads I have read.I am glad to see (finally) some one illustrating the developmental similarities in "Celtic" and "Roman" swords.I have always had a problem with the commonly accepted view of Iron age sword hilts being purely "Celtic" or purely "Roman".When discussing later period European swords...MIgration, "viking", medieval, etc. there are rarely what one could call "ethnic specific" swords.Some sword/hilt types or decoration can be assigned to different areas ,the Norwegian longsax for example,but as a general rule swords and their fittings were same all over NW Europe after circa 500 A.D.How can 2 culture's ,(Celtic and Roman) fight, trade, etc for 500 years and not influence each other dramaticly.The classic image of the Wild celt with his typical LaTene long sword and the Roman legionare with his pompei/mainz gladius probably never existed at the same time.Sure the Gauls (not nec. the Brits) used longer swords in the First century b.c., but the Roman swords of that period used longer swords as well,( I believe Blades from this period reached upwards of 28").I am sure the hilt designs were'nt all that different.When the Romans had adopted the shorter swords(???)The Gauls were still using the "celtic" longsword...the spatha, in the service of Rome.Another question,why do we have no trouble accepting that it was common for "Germanic" warriors of a slightly later period to use Roman swords(bogg finds), but "Celts"of the LaTene did not?Your work shows a simple , clear , line of development of {European} swords of the period.

Nathan Bell · Posted: Tue 15 Jun, 2004 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: hilt development

James King · Posted: Tue 15 Jun, 2004 4:23 pm Post subject:

Exellent post Nate. I stand corrected .After rereading my post I believe I was a bit unclear.I agree totaly that "Roman" style hilts like the one from Hod Hill,Cotterdale, etc. are later LaTene IV, and may have been Roman manufactured.I believe (and should have made more clear)that many earlier Roman Hilts Looked more "celtic" i.e. sloped shoulders on many Republican blades,and Sculptural depictions(looking for sources)of trilobate pomels on Roman swords.IMHO early republican blades may have been more similar to LeTene I blades, than is often illustrated(one exeption is very small illustration in Connolly's Greece and Rome at war p.134 that shows a Roman surveyor armed with a sword with a Latene hilt).When did the "Roman" type hilt with spheroid pommel ,fluted grip,and straight guard develope?200b.c.?100b.c.?50b.c.?It appears that the "Roman" type hilt of the Later Republic/early empire is merely a simplified LaTene type hilt....what else could it have developed from?

Nathan Bell · Posted: Tue 15 Jun, 2004 5:34 pm Post subject: