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Jean Henri Chandler
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 Posted: Sat 13 Feb, 2010 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | | The Japanese used to lacquer their mai armor as a form of rust-proofing (primarily) and decoration (secondarily) and they did this both with their own indigenous type of mail and with the European type they adopted later. So it clearly could be done. |
Japanese mail doesn't have much in common with European mail. The weaves are different and it was almost always sewn to a foundation. The links do not rotate and wear the same as 4-in-1. Any kind of coating on Japanese mail will last a .lot longer than on a European example. |
According to the article on Japanese armor on this (Myarnmoury) site, Japanese mail was always lacquered and that included the European style 4-in-1 which they started using after the 16th Century.
I did a google search for 'lacquered kusari' and the first hit was an auction site entry for, and I'm quoting directly: "Lot 3086: Two Kusari Katabira Edo Period The black lacquered European style chain mail, nanban kusari, sewn onto a red hemp cloth jacket, fastening"
Bold emphasis is mine.
http://www.artfact.com/auction-lot/two-kusari...s7zrpnwyq7
J
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sat 13 Feb, 2010 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | Assuming the passage is referring to mail, |
What other types of armor would you assume to be most common in 12th Century Western Europe?
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there are two questions
What technologies were available that would enable medieval European mail to be coloured red, green, and black?
Is this coating likely to have lasted much longer than a single tournament? |
I don't know perhaps Varnish or lacquer, with dye in it? Coating in pitch, oil or resin? Perhaps boiling in elm bark or some other substance?
Should we rule out the possibility if we can't think of the best way to do it off the top of our heads?
And as to how long it lasted, I'm not sure I understand how relevant that is. How long does armor stay clean? Or rust-free, say for example if you were in a battle exposed to the elements in a place like Northern France or England for a few weeks?
How long does a sword stay sharp? How long do shields last in combat?
J
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sat 13 Feb, 2010 11:32 am Post subject: Japanese black mail |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | Not in Europe. Japanese mail was usually lacquered and the most common colour for Japanese lacquered mail is black. |
 ........This is a picture of an Edo period 1800s Japanese (samurai) forehead protector or hachigane with a black lacquered chain mantle, the mantle was originally covered with cloth which was removed at one point, revealing the chain underneath. The hachigane was usually worn with a kusari katabira or chain jacket. Does anyone have an idea how the chain was laquered and dried with out it all sticking together? This is a link to some close up photos of Japanese chain and some full pieces including kusari katabira. http://s831.photobucket.com/albums/zz238/estc...20samples/
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Matthew Fedele
Location: Auburn, NY USA Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Sat 13 Feb, 2010 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Assuming the passage is referring to mail, there are two questions
What technologies were available that would enable medieval European mail to be coloured red, green, and black?
Is this coating likely to have lasted much longer than a single tournament? |
Looking at an older metal working manual (not period) there isn't much chemically for steel and it mentions nothing about tin (in the case it was tinned first.) Most noble metals can be chemically colored and even lead can be turned green, but nothing for steel but chemical blue, your heat colors, and browning can be done in ammonia. Oil blackening I know is tough enough to survive some hammering and might address the issues with wear that you're thinking of.
I do recall a period description on how to case harden mail, someone here must have tried case hardening. I don't know what effect that has on the color of the iron when it comes out but suspect a small layer of high carbon would just look like steel.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sat 13 Feb, 2010 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | | Dan Howard wrote: | | Assuming the passage is referring to mail, |
What other types of armor would you assume to be most common in 12th Century Western Europe? |
Why are you certain that passage is referring to armour at all?
The word "arms" and "armed" can refer to weapons only, everything worn by the soldier, or just the surcoat and shield decoration.
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sat 13 Feb, 2010 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: |
Why are you certain that passage is referring to armour at all?
The word "arms" and "armed" can refer to weapons only, everything worn by the soldier, or just the surcoat and shield decoration. |
The word used in this passage:
"Cligès ... sat on Morel [a name for a black horse] dressed in armour more black than the biggest mulberry. His armour was completely black." (lines 4662-4665). "
Seems to be "armour", rather than "arms" or "armed". It seems clear to me. Was the word armour used to refer to weapons and surcoats and shield decorations?
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sat 13 Feb, 2010 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: |
"Cligès ... sat on Morel [a name for a black horse] dressed in armour more black than the biggest mulberry. His armour was completely black." (lines 4662-4665). "
Seems to be "armour", rather than "arms" or "armed". It seems clear to me. Was the word armour used to refer to weapons and surcoats and shield decorations?
J |
Does anyone have the passage in the original language?
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Frances Perry
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 14 Feb, 2010 1:37 am Post subject: |
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Finding it difficult to get an on-line original version, but here is another English translation, slightly different:
| Quote: | | Cliges listens and hears what they say, as he sits on his horse Morel, clad in armour blacker than a mulberry: for all his armour was black. As he emerges from the ranks and spurs Morel free of the crowd, there is not one, upon seeing him, but exclaims to his neighbour: "That fellow rides well lance in rest; he is a very, skilful knight and carries his arms right handily; his shield fits well about his neck. But he must be a fool to undertake of his own free will to joust with one of the most valiant knights to be found in all the land. Who can he be? Where was he born? Who knows him here?" "Not I." "Nor I." "There is not a flake of snow on him; but all his armour is blacker far than the cloak of any monk or prior." |
“In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use.”
- Achille Marozzo, 1536
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Sun 14 Feb, 2010 10:40 am Post subject: |
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In the probate inventories of York the Archbiz. of York had blackened mail. That said I have no idea how it was done and this is the only one that comes to mind off hand. I will look and see if I cannot get a copy of the transcript. I seem to remember coming across a few different mentions to blackened mail over the last few years but never thought they were anything special so I never wrote them down. I will keep my eyes open and next time I come across one place it up.
RPM
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Iagoba Ferreira
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| Posted: Sun 14 Feb, 2010 11:57 am Post subject: |
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The original verses (by the way, from the 4614 to 4617, this confused me at first as I couldn't find the verses quoted)
Cligés, qui ce ot et escote,
Sist sor Morel, s'ot armeüre
Plus noire que more meüre ;
Noire fu s'armeüre tote.
Taken from here:
http://atilf.atilf.fr/gsouvay/dect/download/Cliges.xml
Which is part of a bigger project:
http://atilf.atilf.fr/gsouvay/scripts/dect.ex...s_dect.txt
I've heard about some quotes about black mail in Iberian Peninsula (still unconfirmed until I read the original documents) and I know that there may be some extant pieces under research with those characteristics (again awaiting confirmation). Nevertheless, if there is any news on that I'll drop myself around here 
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Johan Gemvik
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| Posted: Tue 16 Feb, 2010 12:26 am Post subject: |
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As I'm making reconstructions of Birka type maille at the moment, it's pretty obvious to me that using wrought Iron or even very low carbon steel closer to iron, produces a darker color maille than the often high carbon steel rings we see in almost all modern produced maille today. Wrought iron can be polished to a shine of course, and some polish will occur naturally from wear, but in time it'll darken again. This won't be exactly black like the japanese mailles, but semi dark.
Here's one of my rings, this one is made from very low carbon steel, close to pure iron. It's obviously still metal that could take a good shine, but somewhat darker and duller than high carbon steel. This is taken with natural sunlight and a minor flash, compare how most steel looks in a flash, it's darker to the eye than it seems in the picture.
The high slag content found in archeological finds of iron age maille can, somewhat depending on composition of the impurities, also give a rather better rust resistance than steel. You can see this effect in antique wrought iron anchors, plate roofs, crosses and nails. Not 100% proof against rust but far better than anything steel except quality stainless.
The easiest way to make both steel and iron really dark and at the same time added resistance to rust is to use burnt oil technique on them, this lasts surprisingly well against wear and gives the metal a dark color. I expect that if you're alrady using a dark metal like wrought iron it's fairly easy to make it black as a mullberry. All you need for this is a hearth and some oil, grease, fat or even butter. Just let the maille lie in the fire for a while and then coat it lightly. Then repeat a few times to give it full coverage.
Butter coating becomes almost jet black but is thicker and may not be as durable to wear as some other types. I prefer olive oil when I make armour or knives, more of a dark bluish antique "iron" look and better even coverage.
Here's a simple knife I made for a friend a while back. It's simply an old file grinded to shape in a way so as not to lose the edge tempering and it turned out pretty well and functional for a "McGuiver" knife. It has burnt oilve oil in 3-4 layers that I polished to a smooth dark shine. It's very durable, basically only intentionally grinding the surface will remove it.
Now if you have a maille of wrought iron, like just about all mailles before the Reneissance would be, then oil burn it you get a rust resistant black maille. Using butter, it'd be jet black. And fairly rust resistant low maintenance.
So did they use it? -I don't know. But it's an easy way to do it that uses common iron ang & medieval household items and gives fairly good and durable rust protection.
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
Last edited by Johan Gemvik on Wed 17 Feb, 2010 12:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Tue 16 Feb, 2010 10:21 am Post subject: |
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This is really great stuff from everybody, much appreciated. This is the kind of thread that makes myArmoury a great resource.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
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Nathan Quarantillo
Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 279
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| Posted: Tue 16 Feb, 2010 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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very true Jean. So black maille was in fact a possibility historically in Europe.
A possibility I was wondering about was that Europe might have in fact traded blackened maille with the middle east. Ive seen numerous examples of maille from that region and india.
And if I am correct, the maille from both regions were identical, so I suspect It might not have been a very big change for some knights in the crusades (Im not exactly sure about the dates of the med east maille so don't assume much here) or later traded or brought the practice home. I hear the crusaders brought much back to Europe, so this might work out.
this is all speculation, don't quote me on this stuff.
"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
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Sean Flynt
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Sean Flynt
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Johan Gemvik
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| Posted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 12:11 am Post subject: |
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Black and Gold and Red cloth, that's symbolic for Night and Day and the Blood of Christ. And looks amazing.
So, artistic license or how armour really looked? Probably this is accurate, certainly the elbow articulation and riveting is unusually realistic, one could built a working armour off of that unlike many other paintings. Notice that the chanimaille even has rivets in the bottom picture? But more sources please.
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Craig Shackleton
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| Posted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 6:56 am Post subject: |
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I can't believe I forgot about this until just now. Paulus Kal has an illustration of two mounted combatants with mostly mail. One is wearing shiny mail and armour, and the other is wearing all black mail and armour. It's a two page spread
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Eric S
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| Posted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Quarantillo wrote: | very true Jean. So black maille was in fact a possibility historically in Europe.
A possibility I was wondering about was that Europe might have in fact traded blackened maille with the middle east. Ive seen numerous examples of maille from that region and india.
And if I am correct, the maille from both regions were identical, so I suspect It might not have been a very big change for some knights in the crusades (Im not exactly sure about the dates of the med east maille so don't assume much here) or later traded or brought the practice home. I hear the crusaders brought much back to Europe, so this might work out.
this is all speculation, don't quote me on this stuff. |
.............. Is it possible that the same method or something very close was used on European mail and armor as was used by the Japanese on their mail and armor? Black lacquer or a substance like it should have been available...I do not have much knowledge of European methods as I collect and study Japanese (samurai) weapons and armor but period pictures I have seen of black armor in Europe look very much like Japanese black lacquered armor.  Picture of Edo Period 1800s Samurai armor.....lacquered black iron and mail
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Jean Henri Chandler
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Eric S
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| Posted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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Close up pics of the two Japanese types of kusari or chain that I have seen  ......... as you can see the black lacquer is wearing thin on these 150+ yr samples, on much older European examples you could probably expect to see no color except on only the most well kept items.
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This is a standard topic
