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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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 Posted: Wed 21 Jul, 2004 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| Joachim Nilsson wrote: | | What's the current estimated length of the XVa? It looks great. I've always wanted a blunt with another profile than the common flat that most blunts have. |
The blade lenght is 86 cm or close to 34 inches.
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R. Laine
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| Posted: Wed 21 Jul, 2004 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| Howard Waddell wrote: | | Rabbe Jan-Olof Laine wrote: | That sounds absolutely magnificent!
However, there is one question I'd like to ask if I may. Has adding a longer (blade length in the 37 inch range) single hander to the line ever been considered? There might be a market (a somewhat small one, but still) for similar swords (especially if fitted with a basket of some kind - heck, a piece of sheet metal hammered to the shape of a basket would do) among the practioners of Silver's system; at the moment, the only way to aquire such a sword is to go custom, as far as I know.
Rabbe
Edit: Gah, why is it that I can't form a single halfway-sensible sentance anymore? |
I'll let Peter and Eric respond to this -- we are going to keep the numbers of models in this Line small, but this may be something to consider.
Best,
Howy |
Thanks. Sorry for responding so late, but I didn't notice your post earlier.
Rabbe
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R. E. Oxley
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| Posted: Wed 21 Jul, 2004 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Johnsson wrote: | | R. E. Oxley wrote: | Mr. Waddell,
I am very interested in the new Squire Line--in particular the Viking type H. How do you think the secondary bevel will effect cutting capability on a sharpened blade? Thanks for your reply. And BTW, Mike is one of the BEST primary contact individuals I have ever had the pleasure to speak with at ANY business! 
Best regards,
Rob Oxley |
Hey Rob,
I am not Howy, but here is my take at this:
The Squire line is a line of swords for the beginner practitioner or collector who whants quality swords that are made with an eye for historical accuracy but made to allow for a limited budget. These swords will also appeal to those who appreciate ruggedness, and there are low (=close to nill) demands in maintenance.
I like the idea that has been brought up that these swords are well suited for patination and home improvement projects. Style, proportions and feel are still very close to what you see in histrorical originals.
To make it possible for this line of swords to be used as sparring weapons the bevels are left a bit blunter leaving a rounded/flat edge (still pretty well defined and not too thick).
It should be noted that one should avoid static blocking of full force blows squarely with the edge (as anyone who study historical swordsmanship knows), but these blades can be used in sparring when used in a reasonable way.
This type of edge has long been the norm on "replicas" not meant for cutting. It is a type of edge that leaves a bit more meat in the blade.
Thicker edges will have some effect on handling, but we are aiming at keeping this to a mimimum.
When sharpened with a secondary bevel a blade like this can be used in cutting with pretty good results, but one should not expect it to perform at the same level as a blade with a highly defined continuos edge.
The swords of the Squire line have one advantage in that the overall blade shape has he same level of definition as the NextGen line, only not brought to the same finish (and left with a blunter bevel). A highly defined blade helps counter some of the inherent crudeness of a secondary bevel grind.
To reach a lower price, compromises have to be made. That is a sorry fact of life.
...The trick is making the right compromises 
Sturdy construction, rugged functionality and well expressed historical style within a tight budget has been the goal for the Squire Line.
Hope this helps explain some of your questions!
Best
Peter |
Hi Peter,
Thank you very much for your excellent explanation of the new Squire Line! Your description of the blade definition and the secondary bevel makes me believe that this line could be sharpened and used effectively for cutting targets. I have always admired Albion's attention to historical accuracy and detail. As my collecting budget is always stretched, I think it is great that Albion has introduced this new line of swords. I think the new Viking sword will be a nice compromise between finish and function! Thank you again, Peter!
Best regards,
Rob
I didn't know she was an Otter Princess when I married her! Although, her small, laughing eyes and love of shellfish should have betrayed her true nature to me.
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Joachim Nilsson
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| Posted: Wed 21 Jul, 2004 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Peter Johnsson wrote: | | Joachim Nilsson wrote: | | What's the current estimated length of the XVa? It looks great. I've always wanted a blunt with another profile than the common flat that most blunts have. |
The blade lenght is 86 cm or close to 34 inches. |
Which gives a total length of??? 
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 21 Jul, 2004 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Joachim Nilsson wrote: | | Peter Johnsson wrote: | | Joachim Nilsson wrote: | | What's the current estimated length of the XVa? It looks great. I've always wanted a blunt with another profile than the common flat that most blunts have. |
The blade lenght is 86 cm or close to 34 inches. |
Which gives a total length of??? |
About 109 cm (roughly 43 inches)
...And as I know you want to know, the cross will be around 20 cm (about 8 inches) wide
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B. Stark
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 21 Jul, 2004 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Man it is fun to watch the tremor or ripple effect when you guys (Albion) announce something new. Very exciting.
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Taylor Ellis
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| Posted: Wed 21 Jul, 2004 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Peter,
The swords look great. Are there any plans for expanding the line if these models take off? If so, any hints as to what? 
Personally, I think a thegn like sword would be pretty popular simply because of the number of Hastings-era reenactment groups, as would a sidesword.
Cheers mate!
Oh yeah, check your email.
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 22 Jul, 2004 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| Taylor Ellis wrote: | Hi Peter,
The swords look great. Are there any plans for expanding the line if these models take off? If so, any hints as to what?
Personally, I think a thegn like sword would be pretty popular simply because of the number of Hastings-era reenactment groups, as would a sidesword.
Cheers mate!
Oh yeah, check your email. |
Hey Taylor,
and thanks
Your idea is a good one but the Squire line will have to be limited by the complxity of the hilt styles. The Anglo Saxon style hilts have many subtle curves and volumes. I do not know if it is possible to make such a hilt within the scope of the Squire line.
There number of Squire models will be far fewer than the number of NextGens, so which ones to add will take some consideration.
Complexty of hilt style is one aspect that is crucial. Simple form and proportion will be the guiding line.
It is important that the style of the sword, its feel and handling, but also aesthetic style should be within the variation of original swords. If the lean budget demands a deviation from this, then it is not a good option for the Squire line. It is better that the sword fulfills its full potential in the Next Generation line.
But we shall see. When the first ones are in production it is possible to see what can be done and what is within the scope of this line.
Even if I am going to be boring and probably often repeat my "interesting, but...", it is good to hear your ideas.
Keep it coming
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Joachim Nilsson
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| Posted: Thu 22 Jul, 2004 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Johnsson wrote: | | Joachim Nilsson wrote: | | Peter Johnsson wrote: | | Joachim Nilsson wrote: | | What's the current estimated length of the XVa? It looks great. I've always wanted a blunt with another profile than the common flat that most blunts have. |
The blade lenght is 86 cm or close to 34 inches. |
Which gives a total length of??? |
About 109 cm (roughly 43 inches)
...And as I know you want to know, the cross will be around 20 cm (about 8 inches) wide |
He he. Looks like I'll be sticking to Albion for blunts too from now on.
Oh man, you guys are gonna make me broke and homeless!
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Thu 22 Jul, 2004 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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Have you considered making a period longsword blunt a la Meyer and various other treatises? I can understand if you didn't want to create one because A&A already has one, but if you offered a version within the same price range as these other Squires, I'm certain you'd have big sellers.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Thu 22 Jul, 2004 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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This is just a general comment that isn't meant for anyone in particular.
Since Albion announced the Squire line I've seen quite a bit of discussion here and on other forums. Quite a few people seem to have the desire to sharpen these things and use them for cutting and what not. While I certainly understand that desire I think people need to understand what they're getting. These swords are meant for reenactment purposes, and for use as a blunt in training. However, the general reaction seems to be "Great! Now I can get an Albion on the cheap!" I think that's a dangerous point of view that will do a disservice to the product.
I'm sure that Albion can sharpen them if the customer wants. On the other hand, these swords won't have the same blade geometry as the Next Gen. and Museum Lines. Consequently they won't respond in the same fashion during a cut. Down the road I can see this leading to disappointment, and bad opinions being formed through the lack of understanding towards the product.
If I were Albion I'd simply refuse to sharpen these swords, just so there'd be no misunderstanding as to their purpose.
Just my opinion.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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R. E. Oxley
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| Posted: Thu 22 Jul, 2004 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: myArmoury Exclusive Preview -- The Squire Line |
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| Eric McHugh wrote: | | Geoff Wood wrote: | | Howard Waddell wrote: |
The Viking (Type H hilt, one piece pommel, Geibig 4 blade) -- $300
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Petersen mentions a couple of Type H hilts with fused pommel and upper guard. Would the squire type H be similar to either of these? |
The pommel will be a type "H" just in one piece. |
Hi Eric,
I see that you are creating the Type H Viking with pommel and upper guard made in one piece. Will this sword feature peened, false rivet ends on the inside of the upper guard or will this design aspect be left off Viking swords in the Squire Line? Thanks for taking the time to answer this question.
Best regards,
Rob
I didn't know she was an Otter Princess when I married her! Although, her small, laughing eyes and love of shellfish should have betrayed her true nature to me.
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Joachim Nilsson
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| Posted: Fri 23 Jul, 2004 3:59 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | This is just a general comment that isn't meant for anyone in particular.
Since Albion announced the Squire line I've seen quite a bit of discussion here and on other forums. Quite a few people seem to have the desire to sharpen these things and use them for cutting and what not. While I certainly understand that desire I think people need to understand what they're getting. These swords are meant for reenactment purposes, and for use as a blunt in training. However, the general reaction seems to be "Great! Now I can get an Albion on the cheap!" I think that's a dangerous point of view that will do a disservice to the product.
I'm sure that Albion can sharpen them if the customer wants. On the other hand, these swords won't have the same blade geometry as the Next Gen. and Museum Lines. Consequently they won't respond in the same fashion during a cut. Down the road I can see this leading to disappointment, and bad opinions being formed through the lack of understanding towards the product.
If I were Albion I'd simply refuse to sharpen these swords, just so there'd be no misunderstanding as to their purpose.
Just my opinion. |
Yeah. Good point. I agree. There really are no short cuts to take when it comes to good, proper sharps.
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Gary Grzybek
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| Posted: Fri 23 Jul, 2004 4:36 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | This is just a general comment that isn't meant for anyone in particular.
Since Albion announced the Squire line I've seen quite a bit of discussion here and on other forums. Quite a few people seem to have the desire to sharpen these things and use them for cutting and what not. While I certainly understand that desire I think people need to understand what they're getting. These swords are meant for reenactment purposes, and for use as a blunt in training. However, the general reaction seems to be "Great! Now I can get an Albion on the cheap!" I think that's a dangerous point of view that will do a disservice to the product.
I'm sure that Albion can sharpen them if the customer wants. On the other hand, these swords won't have the same blade geometry as the Next Gen. and Museum Lines. Consequently they won't respond in the same fashion during a cut. Down the road I can see this leading to disappointment, and bad opinions being formed through the lack of understanding towards the product.
If I were Albion I'd simply refuse to sharpen these swords, just so there'd be no misunderstanding as to their purpose.
Just my opinion. |
I agree, it might be best if this line be offered specifically as blunts to avoid any problems. On the other hand as long as the customer understands what he's getting it may not be an issue. If you look at Del Tin's, most customers understand that they're getting a sword not intended for cutting so the secondary edge bevel will not provide optimum performance. They can be decent cutters depending on the particular model but not like some other high end stuff.
Gary Grzybek
ARMA Northern N.J.
www.armastudy.org
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Howard Waddell
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 23 Jul, 2004 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| Gary Grzybek wrote: | | Patrick Kelly wrote: | This is just a general comment that isn't meant for anyone in particular.
Since Albion announced the Squire line I've seen quite a bit of discussion here and on other forums. Quite a few people seem to have the desire to sharpen these things and use them for cutting and what not. While I certainly understand that desire I think people need to understand what they're getting. These swords are meant for reenactment purposes, and for use as a blunt in training. However, the general reaction seems to be "Great! Now I can get an Albion on the cheap!" I think that's a dangerous point of view that will do a disservice to the product.
I'm sure that Albion can sharpen them if the customer wants. On the other hand, these swords won't have the same blade geometry as the Next Gen. and Museum Lines. Consequently they won't respond in the same fashion during a cut. Down the road I can see this leading to disappointment, and bad opinions being formed through the lack of understanding towards the product.
If I were Albion I'd simply refuse to sharpen these swords, just so there'd be no misunderstanding as to their purpose.
Just my opinion. |
I agree, it might be best if this line be offered specifically as blunts to avoid any problems. On the other hand as long as the customer understands what he's getting it may not be an issue. If you look at Del Tin's, most customers understand that they're getting a sword not intended for cutting so the secondary edge bevel will not provide optimum performance. They can be decent cutters depending on the particular model but not like some other high end stuff. |
Hey Guys!
I agree with all of the above -- with the exception that we will sharpen these at the customer's request, though we will tell them that it will not cut as well as a sword with "integral" cutting edges, as opposed to the secondary bevel.
Cutting performance is a pretty subjective thing anyway -- depending on the target, skill of the user and the blade, you can get diferent results. We have plenty of testimonials from customers that have cut water bottles cleanly with FirstGen swords, which we all freely admit are not in the same class as the NextGens when it comes to edge geometry. Ultimately, anything sharp will cut and at a certain point it becomes "overkill" -- it all comes down to what else you are looking for -- price, looks, accuracy, safety, traditional construction, etc.
The way we look at it, swords are not that unlike cars. Current models of "street" cars that range from Farrari and Rolls to Yugos in price and quality. There are specialized cars as well -- Formula 1 racers and others made for very specific purposes. Stock cars that are made to race or use in demolition derbys.
Other than each having 4 wheels and a motor, you can't compare them. Do they all roll? Yes. Do some roll faster than others? Yes. Are some better-looking than the others? Yes -- but that is also subjective to some extent.
Can you or would you use them to commute to work? Not all of them, for differing reasons, depending on value, performance and street-legality. Is one "better" than the other? It is subjectve, based on what you want., what you are going to use it for, and what it is worth to you as an investment of your hard-earned cash.
Our reason for creating the Squire line is simple -- everyone has to start somewhere.
Beginners should be able to buy swords without making an huge investment, and we would like to be able to offer an inexpensive, traditionally constructed (and in many cases safer) alternative to the other products in this price range. The price range was intentially put below the other less expensive cutting swords on the market -- those swords and makers are not the competition for these beginner/practice swords. Our goal is to get beginners into the continuum of better quality swords, with the hopes that they will like what they get, reognize the quality, take this up as a hobby and start advancing their collection. Our competition is the cheaper imports.
Ultimately, we'd like to see the American Makers pull together, and not snipe at each other, but try to out-market the imports instead.
As the NextGen line evolves, you will see more options on the lower end -- with prices starting in the $500 range -- some may in fact be the same designs as the Squire line, but with cutting sword edge geometry and the NG finish, but the same simpler hilt designs. Our pricing is indexed to the amount of labor involved in each piece, so simpler will be cheaper.
Swords in this price range are requested by our customers every day and I think they will fill a needed niche for beginners, reenactors, and practitioners -- but an apple will not be an orange now matter how hard you wish it to be. A properly made sword with historical edges takes longer to make, and thus is by its nature out of the $300-$400 price range.
Best,
Howy
Albion Swords Ltd
http://albion-swords.com
http://filmswords.com
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Steve Fabert
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| Posted: Fri 23 Jul, 2004 7:39 am Post subject: |
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Don't forget that there is a segment of the market that prefers to have blunt edges out of concern for the safety of younger people in their homes. Someone who can't leave a sharp blade where it can injure a child might need to special order a blunt edge on the higher end Albions. So the economic virtue of lower pricing that comes with blunt edges on the Squire line may also dovetail nicely with the practical needs of some buyers.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 23 Jul, 2004 8:30 am Post subject: |
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Hi Howy,
All very good points, and well said.
I think it's a very smart move to offer these lower cost swords that still feature proper construction. Your point about starting beginners off right is a good one. I wish there had been swords like that available when I started collecting. It would have saved me a lot of money and frustration. I'm sure you feel the same way.
As long as people realize what they're getting there shouldn't be much of a problem. I guess my concern lies in the fact that, personally, I'm really getting tired of seeing these discussions about Brand A outcutting Brand B, etc. etc. I wouln't have a problem with it if the discussions were based on logic. Unfortunately, most of it seems to be based purely on emotionalism and blind brand loyalty. You raised a good point in that it's all subjective anyway
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Gary Grzybek
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| Posted: Fri 23 Jul, 2004 9:01 am Post subject: |
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Howy,
Your explanation makes it very clear and I agree that this choice really helps the folks who still want quality but can't afford to pay the high end prices. If I could afford some blunts the squire line would be my first choice
Gary Grzybek
ARMA Northern N.J.
www.armastudy.org
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Howard Waddell
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 23 Jul, 2004 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | Hi Howy,
All very good points, and well said.
I think it's a very smart move to offer these lower cost swords that still feature proper construction. Your point about starting beginners off right is a good one. I wish there had been swords like that available when I started collecting. It would have saved me a lot of money and frustration. I'm sure you feel the same way.
As long as people realize what they're getting there shouldn't be much of a problem. I guess my concern lies in the fact that, personally, I'm really getting tired of seeing these discussions about Brand A outcutting Brand B, etc. etc. I wouln't have a problem with it if the discussions were based on logic. Unfortunately, most of it seems to be based purely on emotionalism and blind brand loyalty. You raised a good point in that it's all subjective anyway |
Thanks, Patrick!
I wouldn't mind if the discussions were based on actual experience with the swords being discussed... how many times have we heard "I haven't actually [insert: held, seen, or known anyone who has] Brand A, but Brand B is clearly better..." or people comparing swords made 2 or more years ago (from either maker) to a current model of the other maker. We in the business have all changed our designs, methods and increased our knowledge over the last few years (and hopefully will continue to do so ad infinitum).
We are only interested in challenging and competing with ourselves -- trying to make each design and each sword better than the last... we hope that the rest will take care of itself...
Best,
Howy
Albion Swords Ltd
http://albion-swords.com
http://filmswords.com
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Joachim Nilsson
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| Posted: Fri 23 Jul, 2004 9:13 am Post subject: |
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Howie, depending on success, how far (as in "how many different swords") are you planinng on taking the Squire line? Or is that something that haven't even been considered yet?
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