[Nicholas Rettig]

First off let me just say that I realize that this topic is only tangentially related to the purpose of this website but I don't know of a better collection of people knowledgeable about western martial arts that I can reach without standing up, so back to the question. I have always been interested into unarmed combat and have just recently discovered pankration, I was amazed at how modern and practical it looked. This got me interested in other western unarmed fighting styles, I know of quite a few such as sambo, krav maga, kfm, bartitsu (which I like to imagine is meant solely for use in bars), savate, etc., but all these are very recently developed most within the last 100 years. I was trying to find information about styles from the western world and hailing from before 1800. I was hoping that someone on this website could point me in the right direction, thank you in advance.

[Toke Krebs Niclasen]

You could go check out over at ARMA.

http://www.thearma.org/essays.htm

[Andrew Maxwell]

[Nicholas Rettig]

Thanks I found two articles on the arma, both very interesting, one detailed how punching was illegal in Germany, swinging a sword in his face perfectly acceptable, but no punching. Hema looks interesting, any chance you could throw a link to those free translations my way?

[Andrew Maxwell]

http://www.hroarr.com/manuals/liechtenauer/Vo...lation.pdf

Hroarr is a good resource if you want copies of manuals

As far as punching being illegal... let's just say I'd take that with a decent pinch of salt until I see some references. Punching is rare in ringen, but it does occur in Codex Wallerstein and Talhoffer, to name two sources just off the top of my head. Punching is often not a good tactical option in a no-rules unarmed situation compared with locks and breaks, but that doesn't mean it was illegal.

ETA: If you are talking about the article by Jeff Hull, well, his scholarship is top-notch, but I think you've misread it

I think you may have got confused with the "forbidden" techniques, ie those which you would use on the battlefield but not in friendly competition- they weren't illegal though

[Hugh Knight]

Punching was perfectly acceptable in some kinds of fighting, and not in others. Roughly speaking, the Germans broke grappling down into two different kinds of fighting: Fighting in earnest, and friendly fighting. In Codex Wallerstein Master Ott has this to say:

"Although a weak fighter in a serious combat can be equal to a strong opponent, if he has previously learned agility, reach, Kampfstücke [meaning techniques for use in a serious duel such as joint breaks, etc.] and Mordstücke [meaning strikes to vital targets, specifically including punches], in a friendly combat strength always has the advantage. In spite of this, the art of fighting is praised by knights and squires above all other things." (Codex Wallerstein p. 69)

In other words, serious combat included joint locks and breaks and strikes to vital targets that were forbidden in friendly combat. In general, the striking techniques of German Ringen or grappling should be compared to the atemi-waza techniques of jujutsu: They are usually intended more to stun or discomfit an opponent long enough for you to apply or complete a grappling technique, and not as instant fight enders themselves, as they are in, for example, modern karate or boxing.

As an example of this idea, consider this play from Ringeck:
"Strike him with the right hand against the navel as hard as you can. Then, with your left hand, seize his right arm at the biceps. With your right arm, grasp him around his left side. Hold him by the jacket or hose, shift your weight before his hip, so that your right leg is in front of his right, throwing him in this way over the hip." (Tobler 2001 p. 235). In other words, you punch him in the belly to break his concentration and to prevent him from resisting, then you move in and apply a hip throw.

If you are specifically interested in medieval grappling, you may wish to look at this book:
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/the-las...at/6445212

Incidentally, Bartitsu was created by Edward Barton-Wright, a Victorian Englishman, who opened a school teaching his mix of Savate, pugilism, cane fighting and jujutsu in 1899. So it may have been used in bars, but that's not the derivation of the name.

[Nicholas Rettig]

http://www.thearma.org/essays/Getting-Punchy.pdf - at the top of page four is where they detail the illegality of fist-fighting, it says a man can receive a month in jail for striking six months for wounding through fist-fighting and a year for killing a man with fist fighting. Though my language was a little overly general, the law does only apply in certain situations.

At Hugh Knight, yes I know Bartitsu wasn't named after bars, but I've never been one to let the facts get in the way of the fun .

Thank you all I have some homework to do now, all I need is someone who will let me break their arm.