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Martin Wallgren




Location: Bjästa, Sweden
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PostPosted: Wed 03 Feb, 2010 9:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This winter has seen the coldest januari in 180 years according to our esteemed weather scientists here. Where I live it has been a average of minus 19 celsius. So working outside with metal is a no go Wink. Eric lives about 700 kilometers south of me but I heard there was a quite cold januari on Gotland too.

Eric, I love to see some production pictures of the morphing of the old "vandringspokal" when you find a place to work!

Swordsman, Archer and Dad
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 03 Feb, 2010 9:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That is just a bit chillier than it is here in the foothills of the Appalachian mountains. On the other hand, on a sunny day in July we can weld using nothing but a magnifying glass. Laughing Out Loud
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Apr, 2010 11:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've hit a wall on this project. I don't think my blade will work. I still very much want to do this project, though, so I'll be looking for a longer blade.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Eric Hejdström




Location: Visby, Sweden
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Apr, 2010 12:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Why won't it work? Is it the overall look or do you think the balance will be wrong? Your clayscetch looks nice but if anything I'd go for a slightly narrower blade. I'm still behind on lot's of things I want to get done but I seriously hope to be able to start on my DT blande this spring or summer. I'll be happy to share any experience or knowledge that will come out of my project too.

/Eric
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Apr, 2010 1:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The length is the main problem. All of the originals I see are much longer. There will be lots of work in the pommel, cross and grip, and I don't want to put all of that on the wrong blade. Sad There's a long Windlass blade that might work. I just have to wait for it to land in the "Deal of the Day" bin. Big Grin
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Eric Hejdström




Location: Visby, Sweden
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Apr, 2010 12:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How long is the blade in comparison to the grip? Some of theese swords have quite short blades. Some have even shorter blade than a "normal" longsword but the total length is about the same. Maybe just a few inches longer. Is it the total length toat bothers you?
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Apr, 2010 6:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The piece I'm working with is only 113 cm (44.5") long overall. Blade is around 91.4 cm (36"). I would need to take at least 5cm from the blade to turn the ricasso into tang and create the correct grip-to-blade proportions. That's the easy part. I'm worried that the finished sword will be too short overall, a shrunken version of the originals. I see so many of these swords in the 140cm range.... Confused If I can confirm that the overall length is within historical parameters then I'll proceed with the project.

By the way, the Windlass Towton pommel is much too large for this type. I was amazed at just how large that pommel is. The shape is perfect but it's too large in every dimension for this project. If I can get this project back on track I'll be using the "mandarin" pommel as originally planned.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Eric Hejdström




Location: Visby, Sweden
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Apr, 2010 10:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think the shape of the blade might work, have you considered to weld an additional peice to tha tang and keep the blade as it is? If you add 4-6" to the tang you get a blade that's about the same size my DT blade. The one I have is 135cm long. I might loose a few mm on the length when I remove the pommel but it won't matter. I know welding in steels can be a bit tricky but I'm sure someone at a local mcshop can help you out.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Apr, 2010 10:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I did consider a weld, but I'm not sure the blade is worth it.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Eric Hejdström




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PostPosted: Thu 08 Apr, 2010 1:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I took the liberty to quickly adjust the griplength on Sean's claysketch photo just to give an idea on what it might look like with longer grip. I think it works just fine. I just added about 4" to the grip but it's offcourse possible to add even more.






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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Apr, 2010 11:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

With the shorter blade and overall shorter length you may consider the type with broader guard and small scent stopper pommel (or sphere: your choice). These are pretty common in this size.
A completely different look, but you will make something there is plenty of support for. I think that perhaps your blade is even better suited for that kind of sword. If you lengthen the tang by welding, just make sure you heat cycle the weld a few times, to reduce grain size. Also pre-heat before the weld is done.
Should work out fine.



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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 09 Apr, 2010 8:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, Peter! I'll explore that idea.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Sat 10 Apr, 2010 8:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I tried this type in clay and was surprised by how good it looks. Proportions are right and it just seems much more harmonious than I expected. This can actually be an attractive sword, I think. About the grip...is the octagonal section of some the ca. 1450 Swedish swords appropriate for this type as well (ca. 1400)? I tried that for my "sketch" and think it looks very nice. I also noticed that using a sword with such a long grip makes it feel almost like a short polearm, and that makes me wonder if the faceted grip serves the same purpose as the typically faceted polearm haft. If it's historically plausible, I'd like to make an octagonal-section grip with cord and leather wrap. I also like the look of simplest "D"-shaped chappe form of that period. Is there any reason to think that a chappe would not have been used on a Swedish sword of this type?

Something else I've been wondering...some of these 14th and 15th c. Swedish swords remind me of the "lowland" Scottish great swords, with their enormously long grips, weak-looking guards and small globular pommmels. Given the geography and history of cultural exchange with Northern Europe, I wonder if these swords are blood kin.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Sun 11 Apr, 2010 1:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
I tried this type in clay and was surprised by how good it looks. Proportions are right and it just seems much more harmonious than I expected. This can actually be an attractive sword, I think. About the grip...is the octagonal section of some the ca. 1450 Swedish swords appropriate for this type as well (ca. 1400)? I tried that for my "sketch" and think it looks very nice. I also noticed that using a sword with such a long grip makes it feel almost like a short polearm, and that makes me wonder if the faceted grip serves the same purpose as the typically faceted polearm haft. If it's historically plausible, I'd like to make an octagonal-section grip with cord and leather wrap. I also like the look of simplest "D"-shaped chappe form of that period. Is there any reason to think that a chappe would not have been used on a Swedish sword of this type?

Something else I've been wondering...some of these 14th and 15th c. Swedish swords remind me of the "lowland" Scottish great swords, with their enormously long grips, weak-looking guards and small globular pommmels. Given the geography and history of cultural exchange with Northern Europe, I wonder if these swords are blood kin.


I think you are on the right track both regarding your interpretation of the type and your speculation of the shared origins of the claymore :-)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Sun 11 Apr, 2010 4:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks again, Peter! This project is really opening my mind! Those distinctive "staff swords" of the later period seem related, too--a literal extension of these swords.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Pauli Vennervirta





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PostPosted: Wed 14 Apr, 2010 10:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interestingly I have seen a sword in Turku Castle here in Finland that had a very long handle compared to blade. The blade was like a single hand sword blade, but the handle was long with a fishtail pommel, if I remember right. So your project is not too far off from Finland too. I think that the sword was from 15th century.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 14 Apr, 2010 10:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting! I guess lots of folks liked the idea. The fishtail pommel is an interesting detail. If anybody has photos, I know we'd all love to see them!
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 15 Apr, 2010 6:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's where I am as of today, with a new clay model. There are two options for the pommel. The globular option would have to be flattened a bit. I think it's too perfectly round as it is.

Ideally, the cross would be longer but I'm using the longest one I have. The cross will probably need to be thinner than in my rough model, and I'm not sure about the upturned ends of the cross. I saw that on one of the swords in Bruhn-Hoffmeyer and just wanted to see how it looks.

I might make the grip even longer than it is. In this model, the grip, cross and pommel are a little less than 1/3 the total length of the weapon. The grip could be, perhaps, 5 cm longer.

The clay is much heavier than the finished grip core will be, and there's still all of that thick ricasso to remove, but my initial guess is that the POB will be 3-5 cm below the cross. I have a feeling this is going to feel more and more like a short polearm as it comes together. With the long, downturned cross and two-hand grip I can see that this sword would have a very strong defense. I'm guessing that the leverage it could apply against an opposing sword in the bind would be impressive (and deadly for the opponent). Also, since you would be able to easily use this sword with the back hand below the pommel and the front hand at the middle of the grip, the opposing blade could be kept well away from the hands.

It's a fascinating project. Not even close to my main period of interest, and I know I'm not doing the type justice, but it is fascinating, illuminating. Happy



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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 18 May, 2010 6:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just a small bit of progress. I've decided to go with the faceted pommel, which seems to be common up to 1450. I now have the very rough pommel and cross. Next step is to curve the cross. I'm worried that it's a bit too narrow in section but, judging from the various photos, I think it might just be within historical parameters. As shown here, the piece balances at 57mm below the cross. The grip core will be poplar, which is relatively light, so I'm expecting a final POB of around 50mm, maybe slightly less.


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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Eric Hejdström




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PostPosted: Tue 18 May, 2010 10:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice going Sean! I will start the grinding of my own Del Tin blade really soon. Just have a few small things that need to be done first. I think it's really nice with faceted pommels. But it would also be interesting to use a spherical one some day. Hmm.. Which reminds me that I have a friends blade lying around in my storage.. Wonder if he'll ever gonna use it...
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