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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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 Posted: Mon 21 Dec, 2009 11:23 am Post subject: Hi Tony |
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Hi Tony
Pretty unique piece you have there. It is difficult to make real quality evaluations with out more details. Some clues that would give use a better chance at helping you nail it down would be the weight and balance point of the piece. A side view of the hilt and a look at the top of the pommel as well as the blade thickness.
While William could have carved the piece I think his carving is usually more detailed and refined than this example. It is a bit odd motifs wise and has certain elements in how its laid out that do point more to a modern aesthetic.
best
Craig
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Maurizio D'Angelo
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| Posted: Mon 21 Dec, 2009 11:39 am Post subject: |
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I agree with Bruno. But the color does not make sure about its authenticity.
Too blue uniform between blade and guard. 
Ciao
Maurizio
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Mon 21 Dec, 2009 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Anders Backlund wrote: | | M. Eversberg II wrote: | Given the pentacle and what looks like the green man on one side, I'm going to say it's a modern piece.
M. |
Specifically, to me, the pentacle and green man suggest a ceremonial Wicca sword.
Edit: Darn, Mr Gregg beat me to it. Oh well. |
Well somebdy might have "restored" an original found somewhere to adapt it to his religious beliefs.
Rivets seem to have been peened rather casually
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Mon 21 Dec, 2009 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Maurizio D'Angelo wrote: | I agree with Bruno. But the color does not make sure about its authenticity.
Too blue uniform between blade and guard.
Ciao
Maurizio |
I was thinking of an effect of a bad camera. I don't like the bluish tint as well but to me it seems just an effect dut to a poor lens/chip.
New pictures and a caliper measuring of the blade could help a lot.
Blade looks too thick at the debole but I see wide angle distortion and a chip performing poorly as in low level digital cameras.
This camera could perform better in natural light but I would change the camera.
(è forse un efeftto del grandangolo, lo spessore, e il blu è dovuto al digitale. Dovrebbe fotografarla in luce naturale)
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Adam Bodorics
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 22 Dec, 2009 2:34 am Post subject: |
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While I'm quite sure that this SLO is not that old, I thought I might add that there's nothing wrong with pentacles in the open. The church has a habit of absorbing earlier symbols for easier conversion, and it's not a huge surprise that a symbol believed to be so potent is no exception. According to "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight", 14th century, it represents the five fingers/senses/wounds of Christ/joys of Mary/virtues of knighthood. If I wouldn't be so lazy, probably I could find more citations, but I won't.
I do know it's offtopic here, but misinformation works both ways. Don't discard a revered symbol because it's being used by other groups - it's close to call a guy liking Heineken a communist because of the red star, or a Hindu a nazi because of the swastika. Or stay safe and don't use ANY symbols.
...
BTW, that blade is at least 10mm at the quillons, and at least 6mm at one third from the point. While this would made a good stiff poker in itself, the lack of profile taper and the clearly visible rounded point negates this, thus it is not serviceable unless you want a sword-shaped crowbar. While there may be some distortion due to the camera, the shadow lines in relation with the other areas are quite clear.
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Tue 22 Dec, 2009 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| Adam Bodorics wrote: | While I'm quite sure that this SLO is not that old, I thought I might add that there's nothing wrong with pentacles in the open. The church has a habit of absorbing earlier symbols for easier conversion, and it's not a huge surprise that a symbol believed to be so potent is no exception. According to "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight", 14th century, it represents the five fingers/senses/wounds of Christ/joys of Mary/virtues of knighthood. If I wouldn't be so lazy, probably I could find more citations, but I won't.
I do know it's offtopic here, but misinformation works both ways. Don't discard a revered symbol because it's being used by other groups - it's close to call a guy liking Heineken a communist because of the red star, or a Hindu a nazi because of the swastika. Or stay safe and don't use ANY symbols.
...
BTW, that blade is at least 10mm at the quillons, and at least 6mm at one third from the point. While this would made a good stiff poker in itself, the lack of profile taper and the clearly visible rounded point negates this, thus it is not serviceable unless you want a sword-shaped crowbar. While there may be some distortion due to the camera, the shadow lines in relation with the other areas are quite clear. |
At least the cross is a very good work. the point is enough to penetrate and many museum items do not fit "classical" typologies.
I would expect real datas and precise images.
For the moment I do not dare give any opinion.
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Christopher Gregg
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| Posted: Tue 22 Dec, 2009 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| Adam Bodorics wrote: | While I'm quite sure that this SLO is not that old, I thought I might add that there's nothing wrong with pentacles in the open. The church has a habit of absorbing earlier symbols for easier conversion, and it's not a huge surprise that a symbol believed to be so potent is no exception. According to "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight", 14th century, it represents the five fingers/senses/wounds of Christ/joys of Mary/virtues of knighthood. If I wouldn't be so lazy, probably I could find more citations, but I won't.
I do know it's offtopic here, but misinformation works both ways. Don't discard a revered symbol because it's being used by other groups - it's close to call a guy liking Heineken a communist because of the red star, or a Hindu a nazi because of the swastika. Or stay safe and don't use ANY symbols. |
Adam, if you had been living in the USA over the last 40 years, you might have a much different perspective on religious tolerance. Ever since satanism took off here (like I said, about 40 years ago), the public displaying of a pentagram has been controversial at best, and dangerous at worst. Despite America being the land of teh free, there's quite a lot of animosity between different religions, nowadays more than ever.
I lived with a Wiccan roommate about 18 years ago - she was very devout and even a High Priestess in her faith, but she was fired from two different jobs due to her blatant displaying of her religious affilation (can we say discrimination?), and the powers that be would offer her no help. The ACLU offered to review her case, but back then they wouldn't take on such cases lightly (probably because my friend was poor, but this was before you ever heard much of Wicca on a daily basis). I'm not saying it's still this way, and in fact I like the pentagram as a design, regardless of what one wants it to stand for (my Wiccan friend says it stands for the four elements, plus spirit). I seem to recall in school we learned that Pythagoras actually used it as the symbol for his school of mathematics and philosophy.
I stand by my assertion that the sword is a modern representation of a medieval design, with antiquing and a hilt crafted to make it a false ancient ritual piece, probably for a Wiccan or neo-pagan individual or group. BTW, I also own a Wiccan crafted ritual sword, with an iron raven head and talons for a cross guard, two snake heads for a pommel, and acid etched symbols of a magical nature on the ricasso. I was told it was crafted in the UK, but so far I haven't fond out who made it. I'll try to post a few pics this week, if I get a break from all my Christmas activities.
Christopher Gregg
'S Rioghal Mo Dhream!
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Frances Perry
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 22 Dec, 2009 1:11 pm Post subject: Ponderings... |
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My gut reaction is that is may be some kind of Masonic ceremonial sword - either one which is quite old, or one which has been antiqued to look old. It may have some kind of bone or ivory handle, or the handle may be moulded plastic to look old - only you can tell from the feel of the handle...
The Pentagram is an interesting image - the following website indicates that whilst it is seen in much Masonic iconography, the pentragram is not written in any of the teachings of Freemasonry: http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/pentagram.html. It is also not an inverted pentagram - which is commonly related to Satanism / the Occult - often with a goat's head in the centre.
My bet is on some kind of masonic sword. The age? I don't have a clue.[/url]
“In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use.”
- Achille Marozzo, 1536
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Josh MacNeil
Location: Massachusetts, USA Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 197
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| Posted: Tue 22 Dec, 2009 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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I'm no expert on differentiating authentic antiques from forgeries, so I won't comment there. But as for the patina, I can say that it doesn't take as long as you might think to get a piece of steel to look like that. I have an axe head that my dad grabbed me at a junkyard that has an almost identical patina and it certainly isn't a centuries old piece. All it takes is the right environmental conditions and a relatively short amount of time, and you've got one old looking piece of steel.
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Wed 23 Dec, 2009 1:52 am Post subject: Re: Ponderings... |
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| Frances Perry wrote: | My gut reaction is that is may be some kind of Masonic ceremonial sword - either one which is quite old, or one which has been antiqued to look old. It may have some kind of bone or ivory handle, or the handle may be moulded plastic to look old - only you can tell from the feel of the handle...
The Pentagram is an interesting image - the following website indicates that whilst it is seen in much Masonic iconography, the pentragram is not written in any of the teachings of Freemasonry: http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/pentagram.html. It is also not an inverted pentagram - which is commonly related to Satanism / the Occult - often with a goat's head in the centre.
My bet is on some kind of masonic sword. The age? I don't have a clue.[/url] |
Masonic swords are much more elaborate usually they have brass hilts, well crafted and inevitably medieval-ish, much in the way tourist swords are made in Toledo or San Marino.
Also they usually have a cross that somehow tres to resemble a templar style cross.
Here we have an hilt that wouldn't be out of place in a real XV century piece, the blade could that of a shortened longsword which could explain its being not tapered and ungainly in appearance.
I have seen museum pieces made in fashions that a modern sword collector wouldn't believe to be real, so I have developed a non prejudiced mindset to pieces that do not appear archetypically "right".
There were bad swordsmakers then as well, even crude ones have been found in archeological context : probably hurriedly made for emergency work, as I said recyclings were also possible, often with not so pleasant results.
I have seen an unbelieveble one right this summer, coming from a dated archeological layer.
There is a good pitting, quite random, a sign of authenticity If the blade happens to be not as thick as it appears as in this pic (and here only a caliper could speak) .
I find it unreasonable to argue furtherly if the owner doesn't come forward with a more complete description.
I like the pitting as such random and deep pitting is not so easy to fake without much effort.
The hilt is surely modern crap but that is not the point.
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Frances Perry
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 24 Dec, 2009 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Ponderings... |
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| Bruno Giordan wrote: | [
Masonic swords are much more elaborate usually they have brass hilts, well crafted and inevitably medieval-ish, much in the way tourist swords are made in Toledo or San Marino.
Also they usually have a cross that somehow tres to resemble a templar style cross.
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Hmmm... you could be right due to the pictures which come up when you type in 'Masonic sword" into Google, but I assume that Masonic rituals may have been going on for a long time, and thus this may be an old sword related to this - especially due to the images on the handle of two people holding what appears to be axes / at least one person crafting something. As I say, it's just a guess though.
Anyway, I agree that more needs to be identified by taking the sword directly to a museum for a specialist to have a good look - one of the perils of buying a sword without any provenance or historic information, I'm afraid.
“In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use.”
- Achille Marozzo, 1536
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Fri 25 Dec, 2009 2:05 am Post subject: Re: Ponderings... |
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| Frances Perry wrote: | | Bruno Giordan wrote: | [
Masonic swords are much more elaborate usually they have brass hilts, well crafted and inevitably medieval-ish, much in the way tourist swords are made in Toledo or San Marino.
Also they usually have a cross that somehow tres to resemble a templar style cross.
|
Hmmm... you could be right due to the pictures which come up when you type in 'Masonic sword" into Google, but I assume that Masonic rituals may have been going on for a long time, and thus this may be an old sword related to this - especially due to the images on the handle of two people holding what appears to be axes / at least one person crafting something. As I say, it's just a guess though.
Anyway, I agree that more needs to be identified by taking the sword directly to a museum for a specialist to have a good look - one of the perils of buying a sword without any provenance or historic information, I'm afraid. |
Well the official start of Freemasonry is in the eighteenth century Scotland so I assume they were using basket-hilts or some form of reinvented templar swords for their rituals, maybe done by local blacksmiths, which could be the case we are seeing after a couple centuries of decay.
As for modern masonic swords they can be seen at serious dealer's websites as well.
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