[Levente M.]

I always imagined a 12th century knight with a surcoat over mail. Probably because of Hollywood. However looking at images from the 12th century on manuscriptminiatures.com, most knights had nothing over their mail hauberk. The earliest I could find, where they wore surcoats, was about 1190, and became more common around 1220.
So my question is, when did they start wearing surcoats? Is turn of the 12-13th century a good guess?
Also, I imagined templars and hospitallers wearing surcoats. Is it true, that they wore robes until the mid 13th century?

[Luka Borscak]

[Mart Shearer]

One of the earliest cited examples is in the Winchester Bible. Manuscript Miniatures has this folio (69r) mistakenly attributed to the Morgan leaf: It is still in Winchester Cathedral MS 17. I suspect this particular miniature dates to the 1180 end of the date range. The Bile is believed to have been commissioned by the Bishop of Winchester, Henry of Blois in 1160, with a single scribe unusually copying the whole text over 4-5 years. Various artists then added miniatures over drawings for a period of about 15 years, though the Bible's illustrations were never completed. Note the near ankle-length of these early surcoats (ciglatons).
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4670/14885/

You are correct in your assessment that surcoats were not common before the first decade of the 13th century.

The wearing of the monastic robe over armor has been much debated. Sander Marechal has contended that the Hospitallers wore their hooded cloak as the uniform over armor (which would also hinder violent action). The papal dispensation to wear a surcoat in war zones was not granted until 1248.

[Levente M.]

Thank you. It's weird I always imagined knights from the 11-14th centuries wearing surcoats. I guess watching movies and playing games can create some illusions.

[Jeroen T]

To my understanding the surcoat was needed during the Crusades because of the sun and heat in the dessert.
And later on it became a fashion in Europe.

[Levente M.]

Considering when the crusades started, it's weird how long it took them to "discover" cloth over metal protects from the sun.

[Eric Allen]

Considering the dates up-thread would put the proliferation of surcoats as after even the 3rd Crusade, and a whole century after the 1st Crusade, I think we could probably make the argument that protection from the sun in the Levant was a minor or secondary concern, or perhaps not the original or intended function of the surcoat at all.

Although, the widespread use of surcoats also coincides with the codification and wide-spread proliferation of heraldry in Western Europe.

I always find it interesting how the truthiness of certain facts are never called in to question, until someone bothers to look and notices the cracks in the facade. We're never immune to it. How many of the General Populace outside of our little community here still think swords are incredibly heavy and a knight in armor couldn't stand back up if he fell over?

[Roger Hooper]

So when did they stop wearing surcoats?

[Mart Shearer]

There are the lines from The Avowynge of King Arthur, Stanza 39 noted in Charles ffoulkes, The Armourer and His Craft indicating the surcoat protected the mail from rain, "hidden from the wet".

[Ryan S.]

I have read that the Templars were mandated to wear mantles in 1129. A knight's mantle is a simple garment and still part of the regalia of orders of knighthood. I think it just comes from the standard mantles or cloaks that people would just wear to protect themselves from all sorts of weather in Europe and the middle east.

As far as dating the adoption of a practice from the time permission is given, I think that just gives us a rough estimate (still being better than most the data we have for this time period) The knights in the Holy Land were pretty far from Rome and had to make a lot of practical decisions themselves. Due to the lack of long range communication at the time, subordinates tended to write letters more along the lines of this is what we did, rather than what shall we do? Existing practices were then codified.

[Mart Shearer]

[Ryan S.]

[Ahmad Tabari]

If you check the effigies & brasses website you will see that surcoats were being worn over mail as early as the 1130s in France.

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/search/?year=11...;genders=M

[Mart Shearer]

I must say the dates are highly suspect on many of those effigies. The dates listed on Effigies and Brasses are largely taken from the sources which hold the images. More recent scholarship has often changed those dates.

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/2896/6137/
Chasing the link on Hugo Malveysin with a listed date of 1140, brings this note from the source (bolding mine).

[Dan Howard]

Yep. A lot of the dates attributed to various effigies are wrong. Sometimes by a century or more.

[Mart Shearer]

Another point for the surcoat being to protect against wet weather is this piece from Ramon Llull's Book of the Order of Chivalry giving the symbology of each piece of knightly equipment:
http://www.rgle.org.uk/Llull_B_C.htm