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Kirk Lee Spencer




Location: Texas
Joined: 24 Oct 2003

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Posts: 820

PostPosted: Mon 14 Dec, 2009 11:18 am    Post subject: Aegean Bronze Age Sword Charts w/ Abstract from Sandars         Reply with quote

Hi All...

I wanted to share the Aegean Bronze Age Sword typology chart I put together a few years ago trying to combine the classification systems of N.k. sandars and Imma kilian-Dirlmeier into one graphic. I have also developed charts for each type category. On these charts I have tried to abstract some of the conclusions from N.K. Sandars landmark articles on the subject published in the American Journal of Archeology (AJA).

N.K. Sandars, "The First Aegean Swords and Their Ancestry" (in AJA v.65) and
N.K. Sandars, "Later Aegean Bronze Swords" (in AJA v.67)

The information on the Kilian-Dirlmeier classification system, as with many of the examples in the charts, are from
Imma Kilian-Dirlmeier, "Die schwerter in griechenland, Bulgarien und Albanien" in Prahistorische Bronzefunde, abteilung IV Band 12

I invite any corrections or suggestions for improvement in these charts. (I have these stored in photoshop and can make changes easily,)

I believe that swords of the Aegean Bronze Age (as with those in the Nordic Bronze Age) are some of the the most beautiful and distinct swords ever discovered.

I hope these charts may be of assistance in helping you understand the theories on origins and trends in the development of Aegean Bronze Age swords.

Take care,

ks



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Two swords
Lit in Edenís flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Kirk Lee Spencer




Location: Texas
Joined: 24 Oct 2003

Spotlight topics: 6
Posts: 820

PostPosted: Mon 14 Dec, 2009 11:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are the rest...

ks



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Two swords
Lit in Edenís flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 1 page

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Posts: 3,986

PostPosted: Mon 14 Dec, 2009 12:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow - beautiful, wonderful, a great tool. If they haven't already, they should be published in a monograph.
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Luke Zechman




Location: Lock Haven Pennsylvania
Joined: 18 Jan 2009

Posts: 278

PostPosted: Mon 14 Dec, 2009 12:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very nicely done. I can see that much thought and consideration went into these layouts. I am unfamiliar with these types of swords, and your charts have sparked an interest! Keep up the great work.
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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
Joined: 16 Nov 2008

Posts: 678

PostPosted: Mon 14 Dec, 2009 6:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Whoa... Eek!
That looks like a lot of hard work and effort right there.
Sweet job! Laughing Out Loud
I'd better get to saving these bad boys at some point.

Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
Founder of The Van Dieman's Land Stage Gladiators.
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional



Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA
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PostPosted: Mon 14 Dec, 2009 6:47 pm    Post subject: Great Stuff!!!         Reply with quote

This is really excellent work Kirk. Great Job. Very accessible and Interesting.

Thank you
Craig
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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Likes: 5 pages

Posts: 683

PostPosted: Tue 22 Dec, 2009 3:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Really nice work Kirk! Thanks!
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Gavin Kisebach




Location: Lacey, Wa US
Joined: 01 Aug 2004

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Posts: 650

PostPosted: Tue 22 Dec, 2009 4:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kirk, it always feels like Christmas day when you post. I love clear illustrations almost as much as I like typology charts. Thanks for putting these up.
There are only two kinds of scholars; those who love ideas and those who hate them. ~ Emile Chartier
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Maurizio D'Angelo




Location: Italy
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Dec, 2009 5:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I find this work interesting and rare.
Thank you, Kirk, for adding this here.
Ciao
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Kirk Lee Spencer




Location: Texas
Joined: 24 Oct 2003

Spotlight topics: 6
Posts: 820

PostPosted: Wed 23 Dec, 2009 8:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gavin Kisebach wrote:
Kirk, it always feels like Christmas day when you post...



Thanks guys...


Hey Gavin... I'm trying to put together a seax typology chart... I'll try to post it on Christmas Eek! Wink Big Grin

take care

ks

Two swords
Lit in Edenís flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Ruel A. Macaraeg





Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 306

PostPosted: Sat 26 Dec, 2009 9:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kirk,
Are you still here in DFW? I have quite a few photos of Bronze Age Aegean swords from various museums I've visited recently (Royal Ontario, Met, Allard Pierson, Onassis, etc.). I'm still in the process of uploading most of them, but next time Tom Carr has one of his "sword parties" remind me to bring my thumbdrives; I'm sure the photos and labels will prove useful to your system.

http://forensicfashion.com/BC2000CycladicWarrior.html

The Pierson especially is an under-appreciated resource, given its very impressive holdings and abundance of weapons, and the overall quality of its displays.
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Thom R.




Location: Tucson
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Reading list: 30 books

Posts: 630

PostPosted: Sat 26 Dec, 2009 9:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kirk this is really good stuff. Thanks so much. tr
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Maurizio D'Angelo




Location: Italy
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PostPosted: Mon 28 Dec, 2009 5:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bronze rapier with ivory, pommel and gold collars on the grip. A double row of connected spirals in relief on the central rib of blade.
From "Chieftan's Grave", cemetery of Zafer Papoura, Crete.
Total length 95,5 cm.
Late 15th century B. C.
(Archeol. Mus. Heraklion, Crete).

In the Mediterranean group we find the thrusting sword in the
shape of a rapier , with a leafshaped, pistil blade and a
pronounced point, or the so called carp's tongue point, as a very important
object used by footmen.

Arthur J. Evans: The prehistoric tombs of Knossos. (Archaeologia
1903. Vol. 59, p. 445 ff)

I hope is a little help
Ciao
Maurizio



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Kirk Lee Spencer




Location: Texas
Joined: 24 Oct 2003

Spotlight topics: 6
Posts: 820

PostPosted: Mon 28 Dec, 2009 7:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ruel A. Macaraeg wrote:
Kirk,
Are you still here in DFW? I have quite a few photos of Bronze Age Aegean swords from various museums I've visited recently (Royal Ontario, Met, Allard Pierson, Onassis, etc.). I'm still in the process of uploading most of them, but next time Tom Carr has one of his "sword parties" remind me to bring my thumbdrives; I'm sure the photos and labels will prove useful to your system.
...



Yeah... sounds great!

I'll send you a PM and maybe we can meet up. I have a couple more Cervenka's to show you and just about to finish my Mindelheim too.


take care

ks

Two swords
Lit in Edenís flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
View user's profile Send private message
Kirk Lee Spencer




Location: Texas
Joined: 24 Oct 2003

Spotlight topics: 6
Posts: 820

PostPosted: Mon 28 Dec, 2009 7:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thom R. wrote:
Kirk this is really good stuff. Thanks so much. tr


Hey Thom...

You are certainly welcome Happy

ks

Two swords
Lit in Edenís flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
View user's profile Send private message
Kirk Lee Spencer




Location: Texas
Joined: 24 Oct 2003

Spotlight topics: 6
Posts: 820

PostPosted: Mon 28 Dec, 2009 7:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
Bronze rapier with ivory, pommel and gold collars on the grip. A double row of connected spirals in relief on the central rib of blade.
From "Chieftan's Grave", cemetery of Zafer Papoura, Crete.
Total length 95,5 cm.
Late 15th century B. C.
(Archeol. Mus. Heraklion, Crete).

In the Mediterranean group we find the thrusting sword in the
shape of a rapier , with a leafshaped, pistil blade and a
pronounced point, or the so called carp's tongue point, as a very important
object used by footmen.

Arthur J. Evans: The prehistoric tombs of Knossos. (Archaeologia
1903. Vol. 59, p. 445 ff)

I hope is a little help
Ciao
Maurizio


Hi Maurizio...

Great stuff.

I'll see your 95 cm and raise you a 116 cm

It is from Zapher Papoura Knossos Crete. Total length 116 cm. (That is a bronze sword as long as a medieval longsword!) It is preserved in the Ashmolean Museum, Oxford England and published in Sandars,N.K."Later Aegean Bronze Swords" AJA. V67

I still do not know how you can have such a long slight bronze blade and not have it bending all over the place, even with such a thick cross section Question

take care

ks



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preserved in the Ashmolean Museum, Oxford England and published in Sandars,N.K."Later Aegean Bronze Swords" AJA. V67

Two swords
Lit in Edenís flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
View user's profile Send private message
Maurizio D'Angelo




Location: Italy
Joined: 09 Feb 2009
Likes: 3 pages
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 649

PostPosted: Mon 28 Dec, 2009 8:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kirk Lee Spencer wrote:


Hi Maurizio...
Great stuff.
I'll see your 95 cm and raise you a 116 cm
ks


Hi Kirk,
you consider that the book is referenced Hoffmeier, it is 1903. All this time you should be lengthened. Eek!
kidding Kirk. here my source of information. Your information seems more reliable.
is truly incredible ... 116 cm bronze. Without fear these ancient warriors. Happy
Ciao
Maurizio



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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Tue 29 Dec, 2009 6:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kirk Lee Spencer wrote:
I still do not know how you can have such a long slight bronze blade and not have it bending all over the place, even with such a thick cross section Question


I don't know, but the cross section *is* thick. Wink

Maybe you should contact Brock, he has a replica of this type. IIRC, it is about a meter long or so...
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Kirk Lee Spencer




Location: Texas
Joined: 24 Oct 2003

Spotlight topics: 6
Posts: 820

PostPosted: Tue 29 Dec, 2009 7:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
Kirk Lee Spencer wrote:


Hi Maurizio...
Great stuff.
I'll see your 95 cm and raise you a 116 cm
ks


Hi Kirk,
you consider that the book is referenced Hoffmeier, it is 1903. All this time you should be lengthened. Eek!
kidding Kirk. here my source of information. Your information seems more reliable.
is truly incredible ... 116 cm bronze. Without fear these ancient warriors. Happy
Ciao
Maurizio



Hey Maurizio...

Good one Big Grin

I think the source information is fine, we are just looking at two different swords from the same cemetery.

take care...

ks

Two swords
Lit in Edenís flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
View user's profile Send private message
Kirk Lee Spencer




Location: Texas
Joined: 24 Oct 2003

Spotlight topics: 6
Posts: 820

PostPosted: Tue 29 Dec, 2009 8:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Hansen wrote:
Kirk Lee Spencer wrote:
I still do not know how you can have such a long slight bronze blade and not have it bending all over the place, even with such a thick cross section Question


I don't know, but the cross section *is* thick. Wink

Maybe you should contact Brock, he has a replica of this type. IIRC, it is about a meter long or so...



Hi Paul...

I have heard about his Ci... Not sure if I have seen it yet. I know that if Neil cast it, then it will be a fine piece. I'll have to get one of these from Neil. First I have to finish my Mindelheim and Limehouse Happy Speaking of the Mindelheim, the other day I got the pommel on the Mindelheim and was surprised that I can actually find the center of percussion on this long bronze blade. It vibrates like steel and has a nice "ring" to it.

For some reason, in my mind I see these extremely long bronze swords as King's swords that were probably prestige items and not used for combat unless absolutely necessary, or maybe some kind of kingly duel. I suppose they could also be used in combat. The long point would be great for getting over the opponent's shield.

take care

ks



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Two swords
Lit in Edenís flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
View user's profile Send private message


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