Klappvisier -- myArmoury.com

Adam R · Posted: Thu 01 Jul, 2004 6:57 am Post subject: Klappvisier

Hi
Can anyone help? I need some detailed explanations / drawings of the klappvisier hinge and attachment mechanisms found on the German bascinets where the visor is attached by a single point at the centre top of the visor.
Thanks in advance
Adam

Steve Fabert · Posted: Thu 01 Jul, 2004 7:13 am Post subject:

Adam, there seem to be a variety of methods to mount a klapp visor, if you review the websites of smiths working today. A good set of photos of one version can be found at http://www.bestarmour.com/slap4.htm
Other armorers use a simpler method for fixing the faceplate to the hinge, but this one looks more secure to me. Compare these alternative styles:
http://www.christianfletcher.com/Catalog/hist...visier.jpg
http://www.hammeredwombat.com/images/ezwebshow/klappbascinet/
http://us.armouronline.com/content/view/obrazek/792

You can buy an inexpensive hinge for a simple version at http://www.revival.us/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=54

Christian Fletcher · Industry Professional

If you're willing to trust my interpretation of one of these, here's a photo...

Adam R · Posted: Thu 01 Jul, 2004 2:48 pm Post subject: Thanks!

Thanks Steve and thanks Christian. Very useful indeed!

Christian...when the pivot plate is down, does it lock the visor in a closed position?

Christian Fletcher · Industry Professional

No, the only thing this mechanism does is lock the visor's hinge to the front of the helmet. The visor itself is still free to open and, as far as I can tell, would not have had any provision for securing it shut.

Adam R · Posted: Fri 02 Jul, 2004 4:48 am Post subject: and again..

Thanks again Christian.

If you located the axis of the pin off centre, towards the rear of the hinge, the swivel plate could be located to lock the visor down. What do you think? Worthwhile or not? My only puzzlement is what happens to the visor when fighting, it looks like it will flap about. If it is the stiffness of the hinge that keeps it down then that would need to have the pin replaced from time to time and (worse still) the visor could concievably get openned in the fray and would then stay open... a whole new hooking target for the bloke with a poll arm! Sad

Steve Fabert · Posted: Fri 02 Jul, 2004 6:04 am Post subject:

My impression has always been that this style of visor was intended to be used "on or off" rather than "up or down". The upper pin allowed the visor to be removed entirely when the user wanted open vision and breathing, and it was intended to remain in the down position while it was pinned to the helm.

The potential problems of lifting the visor either intentionally or accidentally during combat would appear to have been the same whether it was mounted on a center hinge or two side pivots. Stiff hinges were the only obvious method of keeping the visor in the desired position. Only a detailed examination of the museum pieces would confirm whether there were any attempts made to use additional hardware to secure the lower end of the visor to the sides of the bascinet. The Czech model I listed above seems to have solved the problem by adding a side hook that I have not seen on originals.

Adam R · Posted: Fri 02 Jul, 2004 7:41 am Post subject:

Christian Fletcher · Industry Professional

This has been an interesting point of speculation for me as well as others. Hinging makes sense, as you would want to be able to see and breath freely most of the time by leaving the visor up and dropping it at a moment's notice when needed. Unlike later period visors, however, this style can be quickly removed all together. Was this visor intended to be removed and discarded in the course of battle?

Steve Fabert · Posted: Fri 02 Jul, 2004 9:59 am Post subject:

The central hinge apparently was a temporary solution that appeared in a limited geographical area. In England and France the side hinges were used much more often than the central single hinge, which is usually referred to as a German design. My guess would be that the central hinge was not very satisfactory, however the individual knight preferred to use the visor. It is always possible that it was intended primarily for mounted use against opponents with lances. The same helm may have been worn without the visor during foot combat. I don't recall offhand seeing any artwork that shows a knight with the visor lifted during a battle.