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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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 Posted: Tue 15 Jun, 2004 10:27 am Post subject: The term "reitschwert" |
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Where does the word "reitschwert" come from, and what exactly does it describe? I've seen it mostly used to describe complex hilted Saxon hand and a halfs. But I've also seen it used to describe rapiers and sideswords.
Is it a term describe the function of the blade or the aesthetics of the hilt, or somewhere in between? Or something altogether different? Is it a modern term or period (and what period)?
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Allen W
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| Posted: Tue 15 Jun, 2004 10:39 am Post subject: |
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I have only encountered it in reference to Saxon sideswords of a particular hilt type (see A&A's Saxon Military Sword) and that only in Swords and Hilt Weapons. I find it convenient to have a such a phrase for this type as I am so fond of it and it is so distinctly German. Is it period? I don't know but then I've never encountered the term sidesword in a historical context either.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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David Quivey
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| Posted: Tue 15 Jun, 2004 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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it translates to "riding/rider's sword", but I've never been positive myself as to what exactly a riding sword is...
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Markus Haider
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| Posted: Tue 15 Jun, 2004 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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It is German for "Riding sword", although I don't know what it exactly means, because I have seen swords from 25" to 45" attributed as "Riding swords".
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Josh Aldous
Location: Wisconsin Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Wed 16 Jun, 2004 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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You know, I had a really short reply in mind originally, but then I started thinking, and I'm just all confused about the general concept of (medieval) swords on horseback. I've seen short and long "riding swords", and I've heard folks promote both short and long swords as being the way to go. 
Short: Stays out of the way and only requires one hand to weild
Long: The better to get at those pesky footsoldiers from high atop your steed
I'd love a little less ambiguity with this 
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Felix Wang
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| Posted: Wed 16 Jun, 2004 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know about the German, but I have an opinion on the English term "riding sword". My take on it is that a riding sword is one that you grab when "riding about" doing chores, carrying messages, traveling. It is the opposite of a "war sword" which is one you carry onto the battlefield when you know there is going to be mass carnage. Therefore, a riding sword is typically smaller, lighter, and rarely requires two hands to use. In times of peace, and far from any battlefield, carrying a great sword of war around all day might be tiresome.
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Allen W
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| Posted: Wed 16 Jun, 2004 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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I have a hard time reconciling the casual use definition of riding sword with the issuing of reitschwerts to the bodygaurd of the Elector of Saxony.
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William Goodwin
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| Posted: Thu 17 Jun, 2004 6:25 am Post subject: |
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A little observation I made last night whilst doing my bed-time reading.
The MRL's German Cut & Thrust sword (#1-058) hilt bears a striking resemblence to one of the
reitschwerts (type J) listed in Oakeshott's "European Weapons & Armour". Can't remember which page it was on, don't have the book with me. As far as the origin of the name or term, still looking into it.
William
aka Bill
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James Aldrich
Location: Green Bay WI Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 112
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| Posted: Thu 17 Jun, 2004 8:17 am Post subject: |
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I have always assumed that in this case reit referred not to the form of the sword as such, but rather to the presumed status of the intended wielder-- reiter, knight or member of the equestrian class. Little more than a wild-arse guess as I have little knowledge of these matters.
JSA
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Steve Fabert
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| Posted: Thu 17 Jun, 2004 8:29 am Post subject: |
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The German term for knight is Ritter, so a knight's sword would be a Ritterschwerdt rather than a Reitschwerdt. It seems more likely that the word is an attempt to translate the English term "riding sword" literally., with all of its original imprecision.
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Mathias B.
Location: Franconia, Germany Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Thu 17 Jun, 2004 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| Steve Fabert wrote: | | The German term for knight is Ritter, so a knight's sword would be a Ritterschwerdt rather than a Reitschwerdt. It seems more likely that the word is an attempt to translate the English term "riding sword" literally., with all of its original imprecision. |
As "Ritter" is an archaic form of "Reiter" James could be right, but I tend more to Steve's interpretation. (Although it is Schwert not Schwerdt )
Otium et reges prius et beatas perdidit urbes
(Gaius Valerius Catullus)
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Steve Fabert
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| Posted: Thu 17 Jun, 2004 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Mathias B. wrote: |
As "Ritter" is an archaic form of "Reiter" James could be right, but I tend more to Steve's interpretation. (Although it is Schwert not Schwerdt ;) ) |
German spellings are not altogether consistent over the time period in question. One of the archaic spellings of "Schwert" during this era was "Schwerdt", if I am not misinformed.
http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/wolf/hausmrch/Dru...usmr15.htm
So I am assuming that a 15th -16th Century reference would likely have been to a Ritterschwerdt rather than a Reiterschwert or a Reitenschwert. I have no idea when the precise spelling of "Reitschwert" would have become accepted as a name for some class of swords, whatever its earlier spelling might have been.
I think the term "Degen" is most often applied to a sword that would be used by a knight, rather than any variation of "Reitschwert". But I am only an American of German extraction, not a native German speaker, so I claim no expertise.
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Mathias B.
Location: Franconia, Germany Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Thu 17 Jun, 2004 10:45 am Post subject: |
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I have to apologize (been too arrogant I suppose  ). Medieval German (as well as medieval English I believe) didn't have any spelling rules, so it could well be that contemporary writers would have written "Schwerdt" or even "Schwerth". I only thought about the modern spelling not the medieval one.
Otium et reges prius et beatas perdidit urbes
(Gaius Valerius Catullus)
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Steve Fabert
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| Posted: Thu 17 Jun, 2004 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Mathias B. wrote: | | I have to apologize (been too arrogant I suppose :) ). |
No need to apologize. I was just adding my limited information to the pool of knowledge. Any mistakes deserve to be corrected.
Just looking at German surnames, it seems that the "Schwerdt" spelling was popular at the time family names were being adopted. There are lots of Schwerdts and Schwerdtfegers in the telephone books.
I have enough trouble reading German typefaces and handwriting from even a century ago, let alone 400-500 years past, so I would probably not recognize the spellings if I had an original document in front of me.
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Markus Haider
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| Posted: Thu 17 Jun, 2004 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Mathias B. wrote: | | Steve Fabert wrote: | | The German term for knight is Ritter, so a knight's sword would be a Ritterschwerdt rather than a Reitschwerdt. It seems more likely that the word is an attempt to translate the English term "riding sword" literally., with all of its original imprecision. |
As "Ritter" is an archaic form of "Reiter" James could be right, but I tend more to Steve's interpretation. (Although it is Schwert not Schwerdt ) |
But "Ritter" is a destinct title, while "Reiter" is simply a guy on a horse, so the connex seems to be the horse, not the rider.
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William Goodwin
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| Posted: Fri 18 Jun, 2004 3:40 am Post subject: |
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Upon futher delving into this during my bed-time reading..I found this.
According to E. Oakeshott in "European Weapons & Armour",pgs 135-139, he describes "reitschwert" as just "sword" when comparing to rapier. "It's the form of the blade, not the style of the hilt,which determines the type". Oakeshott is saying this because of anything with a "swept-hilt" is usually refered to as "rapier".
He continues to use the term "reitschwert" in this section, but only as sword and not "riding sword". Another strange thing I noticed, he uses two slightly different spellings, "reitschwert and reitschwerte".
Please correct me if I'm getting off base with this.
William
aka Bill
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Scott Bubar
Location: New England Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 120
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| Posted: Fri 18 Jun, 2004 4:41 am Post subject: |
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In English, I'll go along with Felix. I see a "riding sword" as what one would wear while traveling the roads, as insurance against highwaymen and so forth.
The reitschwert I would see as "horseman's sword"--ie, intended for fighting from horseback--in effect, a cavalry sword.
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Matthew Kelty
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| Posted: Tue 22 Jun, 2004 10:04 am Post subject: Greetings, and my experiences with 'Reiterschwert'... |
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Greetings all,
My particular bend is the late 16th and early 17th century, and 'Reiterschwert' is a term I stumble across a lot.
It is definitely attributed to Mounted Soldiers, although the design itself is for a Soldier in general.
The Reiters were the replacement for heavy lance cavalry in mid to late 16th century warfare. The use of pikes had fairly well negated the effectiveness of Cavalry charge with a lance, and shot was used to clear out a Pike square. Somewhere in the wars of the Low Countries and France's Civil wars (as Henri of Navarre fought his way to Paris), people started mounting up Soldiers armed with wheelocks, petronels, and the like, and running caracoles against Infantry. The German 'Ritter' and French 'Reiter' both get intermingled, but it all comes down to the Mounted Gunner.
At any rate, the 'Reiterschwert' is the only historical term I've found for what many people in the re-enactment circles and faires have called 'Heavy Rapiers', 'Battle Rapiers', etc, and I think I understand where the terminology confusion comes from.
In form, the 'Reiterschwert' has all of the hilt characteristics of the later 16th century and early 17th century Swept Hilt Rapiers, but when you look at the blades on them, they are a much wider blade, and definitely have a lot more "slash" in their design than the classic 'Rapier'. There are some photos posted in the Gallery here from the Venetian Doge's collection, and one photo shows about 20 classic examples of what the German and Austrian museums call 'Reiterschwert', and they are merely 'Munition' grade blades for issuing to soldiers.
Basically, if the hilt screams "Rapier", and the blade screams "Warfare", it's fairly indicative of a soldier's sword (and usually the backup arm, not the primary arm) from 1560-1610, and 'Reiterschwert' is the only term I've found yet that encapsulates this design. Say the word "sword" and people imagine standard Cross profiles, say the word "Rapier", and people think of swishy blades useful for cutting candles and poking Musketeers...
For an excellent photo survey and list of dimensions of Reiterschwert, go to: http://www.claudiospage.com/reitschw.htm
Hope that helped, and I'm glad to meet you all.
Sincerely,
Matthew
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William Goodwin
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| Posted: Tue 22 Jun, 2004 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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Welcome Matthew and thanks for posting that site link.
Some very interesting items there.
William
aka Bill
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This is a standard topic