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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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 Posted: Tue 22 Sep, 2009 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Artis Aboltins wrote: | | Dan Howard wrote: | | Ben P. wrote: | | That was interesting, although I wonder how accurate that Mail was. |
Not even remotely accurate. The same with all TV docos. |
And that is the problem - accurately made mail costs so much that if you can afroad one, you are not going to risk it with any testing that might be even remotely destructive. Meaning - no testing at all. |
I'm fairly certain that the plate that was penetrated is going to be a lot tougher then mail. The cost of mail is really not that expensive compared to the costs of producing a show. In fact I think all the make-up they use costs more. I just bought a riveted Bishops Mantle for $165. I asked the guy who made it to through in some extra rings and rivets for free so I can make repairs myself in the future. I would do the test myself if I could could generate the proper power.
If anyone is interested I can tell you where to get a riveted mail aventail for $80. Just PM me. The armorer told me he has about 15 of them sitting in oil and just wants to get rid of them at cost.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Artis Aboltins
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| Posted: Tue 22 Sep, 2009 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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The thing is, as Dan already menthioned, not to get any riveted mail - you can get that cheap enough, but to get one that would have apropriate material and craftmanship as in the time period of interest. And that is the problem - nowedays we use diferent metal and diferent metods of production.
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Tue 22 Sep, 2009 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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I would test it against welded stainless steel mail, which is strongest of all mail in modern production. If you can break those links with a lance, you can break any period mail.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Benjamin H. Abbott
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| Posted: Tue 22 Sep, 2009 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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While we have accounts of mail stopping lances, we also have plenty of lances penetrating mail. (Usamah himself included at least one.) Matthew Strickland writes convincingly that mail was not proof against the couched lance and that contemporary warriors knew this and acted accordingly.
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Artis Aboltins
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| Posted: Tue 22 Sep, 2009 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | | I would test it against welded stainless steel mail, which is strongest of all mail in modern production. If you can break those links with a lance, you can break any period mail. |
Well the task here is not to see how strong mail you can make and how you can penetrate it but to see how an accurate, period made mail would have protected it's wearer.
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Bjorn Hagstrom
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| Posted: Tue 22 Sep, 2009 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | | I would test it against welded stainless steel mail, which is strongest of all mail in modern production. If you can break those links with a lance, you can break any period mail. |
And also, the hypothesis being that the relativley soft iron in period mail would cause it to absorb energy through deformation (rather like modern deformation-zones in car-bodies) could not be confirmed nor excluded if using hard stainless rings that would fail or fracture more abruptly under high load.
There is nothing quite as sad as a one man conga-line...
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2009 5:57 am Post subject: |
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| Benjamin H. Abbott wrote: | | While we have accounts of mail stopping lances, we also have plenty of lances penetrating mail. (Usamah himself included at least one.) Matthew Strickland writes convincingly that mail was not proof against the couched lance and that contemporary warriors knew this and acted accordingly. |
Yeah they wore "jousting mail". Which was specifically designed to withstand repeated impact from sharpened lances. And it was made of...... mail.
There is absolutely no doubt that mail could be made proof against any contemporary threat. This does not mean that all mail was equally protective. Anyone who says that mail was not proof agaisnt such and such a weapon is just as ill informed as those who claim that all mail was invulnerable. There are many many different types of mail. Each was designed for a specific purpose. This discussion is just as pointless as the "which sword is best" discussions.
For this discussion to have any meaning at all, then discuss a specific type of mail and a specific type of weapon.
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2009 6:26 am Post subject: |
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I've been in mail over a gambson and have been struck hard enough to double over with just a stick with padding at the end from a single handed thrust. The idea of surviving a lance off a charging horse just wearing mail, even three layers of mail, without suffering fatal damage 90% of the time seems unlikely to me. The lance itself weighs about 15 to 20 lbs. The horse is galloping at 20 to 30 mph, and you have a man bracing against it too transferring some of the power of the horse. Modern tests and material might be off a little bit... but they are not that far off. Lance against mail is just complete overkill. The Bayeux Tapestry shows even light spears going clear through mail on both sides.
http://chestofbooks.com/reference/American-Cy...pestry.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...pestry.png
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2009 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | | I've been in mail over a gambson and have been struck hard enough to double over with just a stick with padding at the end from a single handed thrust. The idea of surviving a lance off a charging horse just wearing mail, even three layers of mail, without suffering fatal damage 90% of the time seems unlikely to me. The lance itself weighs about 15 to 20 lbs. The horse is galloping at 20 to 30 mph, and you have a man bracing against it too transferring some of the power of the horse. Modern tests and material might be off a little bit... but they are not that far off. Lance against mail is just complete overkill. The Bayeux Tapestry shows even light spears going clear through mail on both sides. |
Thank you for ignoring my last post. Any statement about "mail" in general is pointless. What type of mail are you speaking about? What kind of mail have you worn? Which museum example was it made to resemble? Which documents did you use to construct your gambeson? Why would knights have worn armour called a jousting hauberk if mail was useless against lances? Why would this have been needed if all mail was the same?
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2009 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: |
Thank you for ignoring my last post. |
Dan,
Keep the snide/sarcastic stuff off this forum.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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This is a standard topic