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Niall Murray




Location: Ireland
Joined: 13 Jun 2004

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PostPosted: Tue 15 Jun, 2004 5:45 am    Post subject: Irish sword queries         Reply with quote

A big hello to you all,

Only found this forum the other day and after searching through it I liked what I saw and quickly registered.

The name you know from my handle. I am from Dublin based in Cork and run the Na Degad website. I try to accurately study, portray and reenact Galloglaich warriors from the period 1350-1550. I noticed a few links to my site on other threads so hopefully I can ask and maybe answer a few questions, after all this seems to be a good place to do it.

I am currently sorting out the arms of the Galloglaich as my helmet, aketon and mail are pretty much covered.

The axe is the Albion Armor Hebridean Axe found in Co. Mayo, a scian (Irish long – knife) which should be arriving any day now and what I am now trying is to find a good source for a traceable sword that will be used for full contact.

On my search I have come across two items of which are from a company that has been discussed already on this forum – Museum Replicas.

Has anyone tried out the Scottish Medieval sword or the Irish Two Hander?

Usual questions:

Are they well balanced?
Can they take the punishment?
What is your opinion of them? Etc

Regards,

Niall Murray.

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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 15 Jun, 2004 7:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Welcome, and thanks for your great site! As you probably already know, I'm a fan of your Galloglaich page. I can't tell you anything about those MRL pieces, but I'm sure somebody here will be able to do so. I'm curious to know how you like your Albion axe. Got any photos of your kit?
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Niall Murray




Location: Ireland
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PostPosted: Tue 15 Jun, 2004 8:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Sean,

Glad you like it. I’m hoping to finish off the rest of the site after I get married in August.

The Axe is a blessing.
Well made, beautifully incised and faithful to the museum dimensions.

A few observations I have come across though are:

The socket for the head although sturdily made and accurate to given dimensions is a little narrow in diameter for my taste and mounting it on a anywhere reasonably sturdy shaft means you will have a little whittling to do thereby making it weaker for impact and more susceptible to break.

I ordered mine sharp but it still needed further sharpening, as I want it for display and demonstration purposes rather than fighting with it (trying to pull blows on a six-foot axe-swing can seriously damage your health) and a few test cuts with it on cardboard and meat (anything with a bit of give in it) leaves me feeling that there should be about a quarter again more weight in it if it was to do any serious damage and still be manageable for continuous combat.

The shaft as is mentioned is on a temporary six-foot pole made of pine coming to just above my chin.
I am to drop it into a joinery place this weekend to get a proper ash or hickory handle carved out for it.
Those who want to do a lot of test cutting might be better off getting it in hickory as the dimensionally proportionate shaft can seem a bit thin.


The shaft itself I am going to get a slight oval section–through it, as when I tested it with a round pole it found it difficult to accurately aim a blow marked out on a target. This oval shape should give a better grip and a higher degree of accuracy. The shape lengthwise I am going to go for the shaft as shown on the Albion website as I like it and get it hand planed so it doesn’t resemble a curtain rail.

All-in-all a scream at $60+P&P and well worth the cost.

Here’s another type of Axe head if you are interested:




Regards,

Niall Murray.

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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 15 Jun, 2004 8:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Outstanding information! Love those photos of the originals.
Thanks!

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Niall Murray




Location: Ireland
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PostPosted: Tue 15 Jun, 2004 8:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No problem.

I'll try to get some pics of my gear together and post them on a seperate thread shortly.

Regards,

Niall Murray.

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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Tue 15 Jun, 2004 10:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Niall,

Welcome to this forum!

Thank you for posting the photo and drawing of the axe head. A very nice one!
Do you have any other favourite Irish arms you would care to share some information about?

I am presetly working on two Irish ring pommel swords for Albion´s Next Gen line, but axes and spears might well be added some time in a not too distant future.

(A note: the Irish swords presently in development are meant to be sharp, so they would not work for your intended use for reenactment-fighting.)

Regarding axe handles:
Irish axes might follow the same tradition and function as viking axes. The shaft holes on viking age war axes are many times very small.
In later times (18th and 19th C) axe handles could be planned in advance by a generation or so. Trees were prepared continuosly, so there would always be some tree ready to be turned into a pair of axe-handles.
The method was this:
A tree was chosen and a cut was made in to the quick wood through the bark along the base of the trunk. The length of the cut was the same as the handle to be made.
The wound through the bark caused the tree to grow welts along both sides of the cut. The wood in these welts became much stronger than the wood in the rest of the tree and could be carved into superior axe handles.

Perhaps the the same was done earlier in history? It seems reasonable ths could be an ancient method.
This way handles with superious strength and flexibility could be made with thin dimensions.
Today we seldom have this opportunity or patience to prepare an axe-handle some 20 years in advance, so hickory might be a good replacement for specially prepared ash.
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Kirk Lee Spencer




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PostPosted: Wed 16 Jun, 2004 8:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Hello and Irish sword queries         Reply with quote

Niall Murray wrote:
A big hello to you all,

The axe is the Albion Armor Hebridean Axe found in Co. Mayo, a scian (Irish long – knife) which should be arriving any day now and what I am now trying is to find a good source for a traceable sword that will be used for full contact.

On my search I have come across two items of which are from a company that has been discussed already on this forum – Museum Replicas.

Has anyone tried out the Scottish Medieval sword or the Irish Two Hander?

Usual questions:

Are they well balanced?
Can they take the punishment?
What is your opinion of them? Etc


Hi Niall

Welcome to the forum... Its good to have you here.

I was at Museum Replica's Showroom a few weeks ago and found two of their Irish hand and a half in the clearance rack for $75. I bought one of them... The cross was just a little crooked and rusty but I am going to reconstuct it anyway.

I did not see the Irish Two Hander (they only have part of their inventory on display). From the pictures it looks like it would be a good reenactment sword. The Irish hand and a half (really a lighter two hander) is very well balanced and sturdy. I thought that the blade would be whippy with its lenticular cross-section. But it was not whippy at all.

I did get to see the Scottish Medieval Sword but it was hanging on the wall could not be removed... They would have brought one from the back, but I was not interested in that particular sword and I had already asked to see several other swords just to get a feel for them. I didn't want to be too much of a nuisance.

I can say that I do not think the Scottish Medieval Sword would take much punishment, especially with its brass guard.


Niall... Let me ask you a question. I want to take the Irish hand and a half and refurbish it to look like its parent original piece in the Dublin museum. The problem is that I have only seen a few pictures of the original and they are fuzzy. It appears that the ring on the ring hilt is rounded on the edges and from the picture it appears that the upper part of the outside of the ring has a groover or fuller in it. I was wondering if you have seen this sword... If so is the top part of the ring "fullered"?
Here is a picture that seems to show a fuller on the outer part of the top of the ring.

thanks

ks

Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities


Last edited by Kirk Lee Spencer on Wed 28 Jul, 2004 8:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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David McElrea




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PostPosted: Thu 17 Jun, 2004 1:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fáilte Niall,

Just so you know, there is another thread as well discussing the weapons (swords in this case) and armour of the Galloglaich (and others)-- your input would be highly valued.

You can find it at:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=1669

As an aside, perhaps you could shed some light on a question that's played on my mind. The galloglaich/gallowglass are often thought of in terms of their origins-- i.e. they are Hebridean/Scottish mercenaries who migrated to Ireland, often with their extended families. While the name means "foreign warrior" I am wondering if:

a) they developed into a generic "class" of fighter, regardless of ethnic origin. A parallel of this option might be found in the modern Highland Regiments, many of whose members are neither from the Highlands (or even Scottish). Might the concept of the galloglaich have developed in a similar manner?

or

b) they remained essentially Hebridean (at least in terms of ancestry).

I think they are generally thought of in terms of b)-- nonetheless, your thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks,

David
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Niall Murray




Location: Ireland
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PostPosted: Fri 18 Jun, 2004 5:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Guys,

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you, workload has been heavy the last few days.

Peter,

Sharps would be no problem as sometimes all we have to do is the living history side of things such as have the equipment used hence the sharp edge to the axe mentioned. Looking forward to seeing those swords though regardless.

I would possibly agree with the notion of the Irish war axes being similar to earlier Viking-age war axes as it was only after the arrival of Scandinavians to Ireland that the Irish began to adopt the axe as a chief weapon. In the case of the Hebrides they were closer to Scandinavian culture than Ireland as a whole and therefore even more likely to adopt their axes.

Interesting info on the selection of future handles. Can you give me any reference for that, as some of the guys here would probably be very interested in finding out more?


Kirk,

$75 for a hand-and-a-half!! ooo you lucky thing!

I wouldn’t mind getting one of those Two-handers as a redshank mercenary. I tried out a classic claymore (down swept quillons with quatrefoil endings) before and was disappointed as it was very whippy and was discouraged from using two-handers after that. It was only after picking up a correctly balanced two-hander hickory waster from ‘purple heart armories’ that the beauty of the two-hander proper was revealed.

Apparently the previous claymore had the blade whittled down to reduce the weight giving it all the tensile strength of a car aerial and just as snappy. We are trying to get some guest teachers over to show us how to correctly handle the two-handers.

The Scottish medieval sword would have been of particular interest to me as I am trying to get the equipment most commonly displayed on the tomb effigies in Ireland first before going on to the later date ring hilts. I wonder if it is a true brass cross guard or just plated brass? A question I think for the manufacturers or current owners of such a sword.

I’ll be going to the Dublin museum next week anyway so I’ll try to pop in and get a visual confirmation. If Pat Wallace (Museum director) is around he might let me take it out and get a good pic.
From your pic it certainly looks fullered doesn’t it.

(I wonder if it had a heavy organic material around the ring hilt to act as the counter balance or a now detached separate weight other wise it looks very thin and must have weighed a ton when swinging) Do you have an overall pic of the sword in question or the info, as I want to make sure I get the right one?


Fáilte Romhat David agus conas a tá tú?

I’ll jump into that thread presently and try not to screw things around too much.

A good question David and one I’ll try to answer with the understanding that nothing I say should be taken as 100% fact as this is all my own opinion based on study, discussion and observation. I’ll also try to keep it short, as it could easily be the topic of a lengthy essay.

I would have to agree towards B initially but with A becoming more predominant as the medieval age progressed and my reasons are as follows:


*The fact that the actual size of the Galloglaich contingents in Irish armies only amounted to 10-30% of the entire army would indicate a use of family kin only and not the other native Irish mercenaries or the peasant levies (garmsluaigh or rising out).

*Common sense dictates that while mercenaries died in battle the lord's own tenants did not thus preserving his agricultural and economic powers while others did the fighting. He can always get more mercenaries.

*The Galloglaich due to the curbing of their power in the western highlands and islands by the encroaching Scottish kings later began to be awarded land in Ireland over cattle primarily in an effort to get them to stay in the service of a particular Irish lordship but also I suspect to give them a place of their own and as a result of having to provide their own manpower to manage these lands they would have brought their families with them.

*To be effective on a battlefield you need to know your companions and what better way than your own kin.

The above reasons aside there are indications that the Galloglaich started to enlist Irishmen into their ranks as time progressed.

*When looked at over time the 'same branch' families in the Hebrides and the families in Ireland began to develop along different lines and began to be identified with different names.

*The first Galloglaich to serve an Anglo-Irish lord (Fitzgerald) came from Connaught with just 40 men and yet within a generation were able to field a sizeable force.

*When mercenaries are mentioned around 1500 they are the claymore and shot carrying redshank mercenaries standing beside the ‘axe-bearing Galloglaich’ both of which are identified as separate bodies by the same author (or at least in the same passage)

*The fact that they were still identified as Galloglaich after 1500 might simply refer to their original ancestry as the first Norman arrivals in the 1160’s were still identified as Sassenach (English/Saxon) throughout the 16th century in the Annals despite the fact that most were thoroughly assimilated into the Irish political landscape. (We Irish are known to have long historical memories)

*For the Galloglaich to survive as an effective force (who were famous for fighting to the last) they needed to fill the gaps in their ranks and the only available manpower were Irish

*The Irish were considered to have been a bit behind the times in terms of armour and weapons by European standards and indeed by Scottish standards also but they were still perfectly adapted to the type of warfare practised in Ireland and the Galloglaich fought with the same arms as they did 2-300 hundred years earlier. If the Galloglaich were still coming from the Hebrides their weaponry and martial gear would have been similar to the redshanks.


*The fact that all the Galloglaich commanders or consapals who succeeded the previous one were of the same family name indicates that they were of the same septs and generally the direct family (quite usually the son or nephew).
It is my view that the Galloglaich were led by the original family but with inter-marriage between Hebridean and native Irish families it allowed for Irish sons to be eligible to join their ranks.

To sum it up tin my view they were still a military caste apart and not generic in the sense that the Kern were but their original Hebridean heritage would have been largely replaced by an Irish heritage in terms of laws and customs as the Medieval period progressed up to the time of Hugh O’Neill but still recognisable in the aspects of recruitment and fighting methods

Hope that helps

Regards,

Niall Murray.

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David McElrea




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PostPosted: Fri 18 Jun, 2004 11:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Niall Murray wrote:
Quote:
Fáilte Romhat David agus conas a tá tú?

I’ll jump into that thread presently and try not to screw things around too much.

A good question David and one I’ll try to answer with the understanding that nothing I say should be taken as 100% fact as this is all my own opinion based on study, discussion and observation....


Hi Niall (agus "Go maith, go raibh maith agat"-- thus nearing the end of my Irish vocab Happy ),

Thanks for your excellent response-- it's great to have you here. You've tied the data together in a way that makes great sense. I've a growing interest in this era of Irish history, and some of the facts I had gleaned about the Galloglaich had led me to wonder... most helpful! Wink

Yours,

David McElrea
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Kirk Lee Spencer




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PostPosted: Fri 18 Jun, 2004 1:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Niall Murray wrote:
Hi Guys,

I’ll be going to the Dublin museum next week anyway so I’ll try to pop in and get a visual confirmation. If Pat Wallace (Museum director) is around he might let me take it out and get a good pic.
From your pic it certainly looks fullered doesn’t it.

(I wonder if it had a heavy organic material around the ring hilt to act as the counter balance or a now detached separate weight other wise it looks very thin and must have weighed a ton when swinging) Do you have an overall pic of the sword in question or the info, as I want to make sure I get the right one?

A




Hi Niall...
That would be fantastic... thanks a million...
Here is a picture of the whole hilt and upper blade...

ks

Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities


Last edited by Kirk Lee Spencer on Wed 28 Jul, 2004 7:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri 18 Jun, 2004 2:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Welcome, Niall!

You mentioned looking at a claymore and being disappointed. Perhaps the sword done by Lutel in the Czech Republic might be of interest: http://www.lutel.cz/index2e.htm . As I understand it, they do make swords for living history / re-enactment purposes. However, I don't think they have made an Irish ring hilt sword. Arms and Armor also does a claymore - http://armor.com/2000/catalog/item100.html . They do first rate work. They also have a single hand ring-hilt sword that might be of interest. Gus Trim does a small hand and a half with a ring hilt - http://allsaintsblades.com/at1541.htm . He used to have a standard (about 45") size hand-and-a-half; he might be able to make one for you as a special request.
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David McElrea




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PostPosted: Fri 18 Jun, 2004 3:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Niall, you mentioned that you are awaiting a scian-- do you mind my asking who does it?

I know Irish Arms offers them, but they seem to be booked until late August (although yours might be one of the ones they are working on). Eric McHugh made a beautiful one not long ago which I would have tried for if I had seen it on time-- you can see that one on Albion's website, or more specifically:

Quote:
http://www.albionarmorers.com/inhouse/eric.htm


I've not found anyone else who does them, so any info would be appreciated (as well as pics when yours arrives). Happy

Cheers,

David
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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Fri 18 Jun, 2004 4:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's an overall shot of that Irish hand & half .....

c. 1540


* Photo: - 15th Park Lane Arms Fair catalog, D.A. Oliver

Mac

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Last edited by Thomas McDonald on Sat 19 Jun, 2004 9:53 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Fri 18 Jun, 2004 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Hello and Irish sword queries         Reply with quote

Quote:
Niall... Let me ask you a question. I want to take the Irish hand and a half and refurbish it to look like its parent original piece in the Dublin museum. The problem is that I have only seen a few pictures of the original and they are fuzzy. It appears that the ring on the ring hilt is rounded on the edges and from the picture it appears that the upper part of the outside of the ring has a groover or fuller in it. I was wondering if you have seen this sword... If so is the top part of the ring "fullered"? Here is a picture that seems to show a fuller on the outer part of the top of the ring. thanks ks


Kirk

"The ring is of rectangular section with the outer edge incised with a groove.

OL - 49" inches (124.5 cm)
BL - 38" inches (96.5 cm)
BW - 1.5" inches (just under 4.0 cm) at the ricasso.
Pommel 2.5" inches (6.75 cm) taken from outer edge left to right .
Cross - 11" inches (28.5 cm)

The blade is constructed of stiff oval section tapering to a point."

From : A Two Handed Gaelic Irish Sword of the Sixteenth Century by Tony Willis .
-The 15th Park Lane Arms Fair catalog, 1998 .

Mac

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PostPosted: Sat 19 Jun, 2004 11:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mac...

Thanks for the info... that will really help me get my MRL reject a little closer to the original.
It looks like the blade is going to be 3-4 inches shorter and the ring is about 1 cm smaller in diameter. Other than that the dimensions seem quite close and with a little shaping on the pommel and cross it should be a fair replica of the original. I am thinking about putting a Narsil-like grip on it. I will use wire binding on the upper part of the grip rather than solid steel. It will be about as close to the Narsil look and still be a historical piece.

Thanks again for the help Mac.

ks

Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Sat 19 Jun, 2004 11:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kirk Lee Spencer wrote:
Mac...
Thanks for the info... that will really help me get my MRL reject a little closer to the original.
It looks like the blade is going to be 3-4 inches shorter and the ring is about 1 cm smaller in diameter. Other than that the dimensions seem quite close and with a little shaping on the pommel and cross it should be a fair replica of the original. I am thinking about putting a Narsil-like grip on it. I will use wire binding on the upper part of the grip rather than solid steel. It will be about as close to the Narsil look and still be a historical piece.
Thanks again for the help Mac. ks


Your very welcome, Kirk ... glad I could help !

If your interested in reading Mr. Willis article I would be happy to scan the pages and send it to you !
All I need is your e-mail address !

Slàinte, Mac

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Kirk Lee Spencer




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PostPosted: Sat 19 Jun, 2004 1:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mac...

Yes, I would love to see it.

Your the greatest...

Sent you an email...

thanks
ks

Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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PostPosted: Sat 19 Jun, 2004 6:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kirk -
I sent the article to you in 2 parts, 5 pages (attachments) in each !

Enjoy, Mac

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Kirk Lee Spencer




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PostPosted: Sun 20 Jun, 2004 9:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Got it Mac...

Just what I needed.

thanks for taking the time!

ks

Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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