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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Wed 12 Aug, 2009 10:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote:
Jean, what really blew my mind was a pair of titanium articulated elbows for children I saw at Pennsic. Cost $350 just for a pair of elbows! Light as paper. But common... they could just give the kids a pair for aluminum elbows for about $50 a pair. Its only a few ounces heavier. I guess some people did not hear about the great recession yet WTF?!


Well one could be envious and jealous but if some people are still doing O.K. in this economy ( And doing it honestly ) then more power to them and if " they " are spending their money on expensive titanium elbows for children they are helping to feed the kids of expensive titanium elbow makers. Wink Big Grin Cool

When things are bad wishing it to be bad for everybody might make some people happy that nobody is doing better than themselves but it actually means that things will stay " BAD " for a lot longer.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Gavin Kisebach




Location: Lacey, Wa US
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PostPosted: Wed 12 Aug, 2009 10:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually that's not a child. Her SCA name is Robyn of Rye.

Robyn is 130 cm tall, and weighs about sixty pounds. She is a former alternate member of the Austrian Olympic Women's Gymnastics team. Her plate was made for her by Stonekeep armory and Fredrich von der Teufel. It had to be custom made, obviously. She is in her twenties.

There are only two kinds of scholars; those who love ideas and those who hate them. ~ Emile Chartier
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Wed 12 Aug, 2009 10:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gavin Kisebach wrote:
Actually that's not a child. Her SCA name is Robyn of Rye.

Robyn is 130 cm tall, and weighs about sixty pounds. She is a former alternate member of the Austrian Olympic Women's Gymnastics team. Her plate was made for her by Stonekeep armory and Fredrich von der Teufel. It had to be custom made, obviously. She is in her twenties.


Ah ! Thanks for the correction and then the armour will be usable for a long(er) time. Hard to tell though just from the pic so I guess i just jumped to conclusions on insufficient information. Blush Congratulations on nice armour to her in any case.

Well if she reads my post ( assuming she knows about " myArmoury " ) I hope she isn't offended and my apologies if she is.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Gavin Kisebach




Location: Lacey, Wa US
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PostPosted: Wed 12 Aug, 2009 11:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wonder how good a fighter she is at that size. Certainly she's in trouble grappling against a large man in armor, but as a gymnast I've no doubt that she's scary quick, and smaller fighters can be very difficult when they get entrenched behind a large shield.
There are only two kinds of scholars; those who love ideas and those who hate them. ~ Emile Chartier
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Al Muckart




Location: NZ
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PostPosted: Wed 12 Aug, 2009 11:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
This is incorrect. Tu Chux are spread nationwide, we had them in California when I was in the SCA and that was twenty years ago. Bennison, I don't know if you can find then in New Zeland. I'm sure a local SCA group will know if you ask them.


I've never heard of TuChux existing in New Zealand, nor am I aware of any non-SCA groups who fight with SCA-style weapons here. There are quite a few steel weapons groups (I wouldn't call them WMA groups) here too, and a small but growing number of serious WMA practitioners.

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Bennison N




Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Aug, 2009 12:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nope, never heard of TuChux here in New Zealand. Actually, I hadn't heard of them until this thread.

I was thinking I might apply to compete from here, get the rules, train a bit and then travel there. It really looks like fun, and I feel confident. After a year or so of training in the "style", I think I might have a chance of doing quite well.

"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

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Robert A





Joined: 23 Mar 2009

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PostPosted: Thu 13 Aug, 2009 4:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gavin Kisebach wrote:
Actually that's not a child. Her SCA name is Robyn of Rye.

Robyn is 130 cm tall, and weighs about sixty pounds. She is a former alternate member of the Austrian Olympic Women's Gymnastics team. Her plate was made for her by Stonekeep armory and Fredrich von der Teufel. It had to be custom made, obviously. She is in her twenties.

I was convinced when I spotted the cigarette!
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Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Aug, 2009 7:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bennison N wrote:
Nope, never heard of TuChux here in New Zealand. Actually, I hadn't heard of them until this thread.

I was thinking I might apply to compete from here, get the rules, train a bit and then travel there. It really looks like fun, and I feel confident. After a year or so of training in the "style", I think I might have a chance of doing quite well.



No application is required to register for this tournament. You just show up, give your name and make a $5 donation to charity that they request. I don't even think the TuChux even care if you have an SCA authorization for their tournament. It would be advisable however to get yourself an SCA authorization in your area just to have all your basis covered given you would be traveling all this way. The authorization is free and can be obtained by going to an SCA practice and passing an authorization fight. It is a bare bones minimum test just to make sure you are not a real danger to yourself or anyone else.

You do not need to be a member of the SCA to get authorized and go to events and practices. Most people who fight in the SCA are not. Going to practices will train you to fight with the weapons. For the grappling part I would suggest Brazilian Jujitsu since they have a very developed program and do full contact sparring. Brazilian Jujitsu is close to Nujistu which was designed for grappling against armored opponents. The most ideal training situation would be to meet up with TuChux members and practice with them, but that is even difficult for me given I am 8 hours away by car. They also have to accept you into their group.

I should also add that while this tournament has been a tradition at Pennsic for at least a few years now, there is not guarantee it will be there next year. However, it is likely to be held since everyone had a good time and nobody was hurt. The video I posted is likely to drum up a lot of interest from people within the SCA too. Most people at Penssic are not aware of that the TuChux tournament is like. There are so many things going on that it is hard to keep up. I have been been there for the last three years any only heard about the grappling this year.


To go to Pennsic you will need to register and pay a fee to Coopers Lake which is the camp ground. Its about $120 for the two weeks. They don't have there registration site up yet for Pennsic 39 but in a few months you should be able to google "register for Pennsic 39". Contact me later in the year and I will be able to get you a direct link to the registration site.

You will have to pick someplace to camp within Pennsic. There are about 12,000 people camping and about 100 seperate camps. They do have open camping areas for people not affiliated with any groups. You may want to camp with the WMA group within Pensic. The have a camp called "WMA in SCA". They have a Yahoo group you can get on with that name.

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
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David E. Farrell




Location: Evanston, IL
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Aug, 2009 9:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote:
For the grappling part I would suggest Brazilian Jujitsu since they have a very developed program and do full contact sparring. Brazilian Jujitsu is close to Nujistu which was designed for grappling against armored opponents.


um, the rest of your post aside - I'm not convinced of this claim. There is probably a very good reason historical armoured grappling looks nothing like the very modern sport grappling system of BJJ. BJJ was never intended to be used in armour, and many of the techniques reflect this.

I'd recommend either a good WMA group that studies a medieval/early rennaissance tradition that includes grappling (Fiore, for example), or an EMA group that has historical armoured combat as part of its curriculum.

AKA: 'Sparky' (so I don't need to explain later Wink )

For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
-- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare

Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused... but on a higher level.
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Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Aug, 2009 10:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David, I agree that WMA has all the skills necessary to succeed in grappling. What I think is lacking in WMA training is a practical focus on grappling. What would be required is a group that does two hours of grappling every week. The group would need at least 10 competitive people to offer a variety of experience. The first hour would be instruction, the second hour would be competitive combat to build up experience. They should Grapple in armor. This is the level of training required to win a Tuchux tournament. 6 of the 8 finalists in the tournament were Tuchux warriors. A Tuchux won the tournament this year and last year. These guys grapple every week in the manor you see in the video and have a lot of experience doing this. Grappling in armor changes the experience. The focus on grappling that I am suggesting would most likely detract on time spent on others things. Most WMA groups only meet once a week.

The reason I suggested Brazilian Jujitsu is because those guys spend almost their entire practice rolling around on mat floors in a competitive manor. Learning how to do the various grapples and holds is not enough for competition. You have have to be able to execute them in less then perfect situations against people of various sizes, strengths and speeds.

What I just prescribed is rather extreme training for someone who actually wants to win a Tu Chux tournament who can't actually train with TuChux. A basic understanding of WMA grappling is enough to get in there and just have some fun. That is the level that I entered the tournament at. I had a few wins and had a lot of fun.

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
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David E. Farrell




Location: Evanston, IL
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Aug, 2009 10:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote:
David, I agree that WMA has all the skills necessary to succeed in grappling. What I thinking is lacking in WMA training today is a on armored grappling. What would be required is a group that does two hours of grappling every week. .


no argument there - between the average SCA group (or TuChux), and the average WMA group, there is no question who spends more time in harness doing *anything* let alone grappling (hint... it ain't most WMA groups). Depends on what you are trying to get at I guess. Though I imagine finding a group that does at least 1 hour of grappling per week wouldn't be too bad (probably not in armour). As I have posted on a thread on SFI... it is getting out of drills and into the loose and free play that can get tough just because of lack of interested people (and the ever present time constraint).

And yes, BJJ, Catch wrestling or even straight up Freestyle or Greco-Roman will get you a level of experience in unarmed work that most WMA groups won't. There is something to be said for cross-training with a group more focused on one particular thing.

AKA: 'Sparky' (so I don't need to explain later Wink )

For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
-- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare

Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused... but on a higher level.
-- Enrico Fermi
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Bennison N




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PostPosted: Thu 13 Aug, 2009 2:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No problem.

I already have years and years of grappling practice behind me. Even BJJ, although I prefer to get back up on my feet... The floor is so dirty... Aikido, Judo, Ssireum, Shuai Chiao, Greco-Roman. My grappling's ok. Especially defensively so... Especially against takedowns.

And I believe my Chinese weapon techniques will be sufficient too. I can use all the weapon types I've been told they use there. Wish there was a way to rig the draw... Haha!

I'll go see the SCA this weekend. Maybe I'll see some of you guys there. Please update me if you hear anything about the tournament not being on next year.

Quite exciting! I love these kind of things...

"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

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Bill Tsafa




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PostPosted: Thu 13 Aug, 2009 2:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bennison, looks like you have all the right stuff in your background. You should do quit well in the next tournament. Looking forward to meeting you in person.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
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www.poconogym.com
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Taylor Ellis




PostPosted: Thu 13 Aug, 2009 7:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I do bjj 3 times a week. I really like it too. But I thought the vids were aweful (from a WMA point of view). The addition of daggers alone should completely change what techniques would be most effective in this context (and I'd be betting on historically derived grappling forms).

Quote:
Brazilian Jujitsu is close to Nujistu which was designed for grappling against armored opponents.

WTF?!
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Bill Tsafa




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PostPosted: Thu 13 Aug, 2009 8:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is not doubt that a dagger as a second weapon would have changed the feel of the fights. However, one does not always get to choose the exact circumstances of a fight. Then there are other factors too to consider. During some sparring a year ago my opponent dropped his dagger as I rushed him. He was not even wearing gauntlets. It can be hard to draw a dagger mid-fight without dropping it as an opponent closes in (particularly in armor). An opponent should not back off and let you switch weapons.

When you draw your dagger mid-fight and that constitutes at least one fencing time during which you opponent can take the initiative. It is impossible to know exactly what effect changes would have had without actually testing them out in an competitive environment and a large pool of experienced people. Perhaps next years tournament will be set up differently with secondary weapons. They used daggers last year but it was a primary weapon. I was told it did not do too well against longer weapons that just fought from range.

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Gavin Kisebach




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PostPosted: Thu 13 Aug, 2009 9:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Backup daggers are very popular in my area, but with mixed results. Some people seem overly excited to use them; others forget that they have a dagger in the heat of the moment.

Because of the design limitations of SCA weaponry, the person getting stabbed can be completely oblivious to the attack. I've seen fighters stabbed in the face (well, the bar grill to be exact) multiple times without registering what just happened.

For the grapplers who are interested in Tuchux fighting I would strongly advise spending serious, focused training time on actual SCA fighting. As Tsafa mentioned, his video was truncated to focus on grappling; don't get the impression that your bouts will ever even come to grappling. Spend some time with each of the weapons systems or you won't live long enough to close the gap.

There are only two kinds of scholars; those who love ideas and those who hate them. ~ Emile Chartier
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Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Aug, 2009 6:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The following videos should be of interest to dagger lovers. The tall guy in the video uses sword and dagger as his primary form. He is 6'4", a good 270 lbs and is very fond of planting that dagger in my ribs when he can. When he hits you, you know it. I fight him on a regular basis. He uses the dagger a his primary parry device and to stab in close. I have also seen him hook and opponents sword down and trap it against the shield, then kill with his free sword. He is especially effective against me because I tend to fight a more close game and that favors his dagger. I really have to stop that when I fight him and move to his swordside away from the dagger. I know what to do, but knowing and doing are two different things in a fight.

I don't have any video of him fighting me up on You Tube at the moment but I do have two old videos of him fighting two other people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qP8Utdjba0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXgRFJYz6V8

You will notice that his opponents in this video are very good at maintaining distance. Thus taking away the threat of the shorter weapon. He is still able to block effectively with it. Before I started fighting him I did not think it would be possible to block strong sword cuts with a dagger. He does it all the time. He tells me he points the dagger slightly out. Make no mistake, this is a hard, hard form to use effectively. It takes years to develop to this level. When blocking you have cover a large area with something smaller then a buckler.

The first vid has a nice execution of the daggerman at 3:08. Daggerman gets his revenge at 3:58. The second video shows some dagger hooking at 4:00. Nice dagger sword combination attack at 5:10.

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Bennison N




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PostPosted: Wed 19 Aug, 2009 2:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Vassilis,

You wouldn't happen to have any contact details of someone organising the Tu Chux event. Just something someone from a few thousand KM away could use to sign up?

Thanks mate, I know this is better possibly as a PM, but the IT nazis here at work will let me post, but not PM... Strange, and I don't know how they do it, but just posting doesn't seem to bother them.

"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

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Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Aug, 2009 6:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bennison N wrote:
Hey Vassilis,

You wouldn't happen to have any contact details of someone organising the Tu Chux event. Just something someone from a few thousand KM away could use to sign up?


Here is a Blog you can follow up on and make some contacts. You should be able to email or PM the various posters in the following Blog who are TuChux members once you register for the Blog. You will want to make contact with Minimal if you can. He is a Tribe Chief who seems to be active on the internet too. Let me know if get anywhere.

http://tribes.tribe.net/tuchuxnfriends/threads


edit: I just joined the blog/forum myself. The following thread may yield some information:

http://tribes.tribe.net/tuchuxnfriends/thread...52faf25ad4

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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