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Hal Siegel
Industry Professional
Location: Austin, Texas Joined: 30 Aug 2003
Posts: 113
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 Posted: Fri 24 Jul, 2009 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Flails - as someone mentioned earlier, Mair includes some two-handed flail in his marvelously illustrated work.
Here's a video I found from a couple of guys experimenting with flail techniques -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Alt-GzAGrMY&feature=channel
Check "More from Djemps" for other flail videos - some good, some a bit silly.
(I experimented years ago (decades actually - yikes!) with similar two-hand short-chained rattan and foam flails for SCA fighting. I found you could make two-handed flails reasonably safe and durable, and they were a lot of fun to surprise shield-men with  , but they were never officially sanctioned.)
Hal Siegel - TherionArms
http://www.therionarms.com
http://www.facebook.com/TherionArms
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James Head
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| Posted: Sun 26 Jul, 2009 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| Hal Siegel wrote: | Flails - as someone mentioned earlier, Mair includes some two-handed flail in his marvelously illustrated work.
Here's a video I found from a couple of guys experimenting with flail techniques -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Alt-GzAGrMY&feature=channel
Check "More from Djemps" for other flail videos - some good, some a bit silly.
(I experimented years ago (decades actually - yikes!) with similar two-hand short-chained rattan and foam flails for SCA fighting. I found you could make two-handed flails reasonably safe and durable, and they were a lot of fun to surprise shield-men with , but they were never officially sanctioned.) |
Hi Hal!
I'm actually the author of the videos you posted the link to. Yeah, I've got some goofy vids on my profile, but most of them are dedicated to the study of PHM's various peasant weapon techniques. Just two weeks ago I had the chance to video tape some more stuff on the two handed Flail with my friends at MEMAG. I hope to have it edited and published on my profile within the week.
I think we may never be able to prove whether Paulus Hector Mair was just making up his peasant weapon techniques as a fun curiosity, or whether he was documenting some kind of rural combat tradition. He was about six years old when the Peasant's Revolt in Germany came to an end. Was there some kind of surviving knowledge of peasant weapon warfare still floating around when created his Ars Gladiatoris opus as a grown man?
Either way, it is awesome to have at least some kind of surviving instruction on how to fight with the two handed Flail. I don't think people realize how valuable this source is. Although there are not many surviving examples remaining, the two handed Flail was much more commonly used in Medieval warfare than the Knightly riding Flail. It was one of the key ingredients that allowed Jan Zizka's Hussites to constantly prevail over all of the nobility and highly trained mercenaries that the Holy Roman Empire kept throwing at them. And clearly the Hussite Wars were not the only instance in history when the two handed Flail was used to good success.
Anyhow, I hope that more people will become interested in studying the two handed Flail in the future. I would go so far as to suggest that is an important part of military history, and certainly was more prevalent than the Knightly Flail that we see so often in TV and Movies.
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Sun 26 Jul, 2009 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| James Head wrote: | I'm actually the author of the videos you posted the link to. Yeah, I've got some goofy vids on my profile, but most of them are dedicated to the study of PHM's various peasant weapon techniques. Just two weeks ago I had the chance to video tape some more stuff on the two handed Flail with my friends at MEMAG. I hope to have it edited and published on my profile within the week.
I think we may never be able to prove whether Paulus Hector Mair was just making up his peasant weapon techniques as a fun curiosity, or whether he was documenting some kind of rural combat tradition. He was about six years old when the Peasant's Revolt in Germany came to an end. Was there some kind of surviving knowledge of peasant weapon warfare still floating around when created his Ars Gladiatoris opus as a grown man?
Either way, it is awesome to have at least some kind of surviving instruction on how to fight with the two handed Flail. I don't think people realize how valuable this source is. Although there are not many surviving examples remaining, the two handed Flail was much more commonly used in Medieval warfare than the Knightly riding Flail. It was one of the key ingredients that allowed Jan Zizka's Hussites to constantly prevail over all of the nobility and highly trained mercenaries that the Holy Roman Empire kept throwing at them. And clearly the Hussite Wars were not the only instance in history when the two handed Flail was used to good success.
Anyhow, I hope that more people will become interested in studying the two handed Flail in the future. I would go so far as to suggest that is an important part of military history, and certainly was more prevalent than the Knightly Flail that we see so often in TV and Movies. |
Hi James,
I think those videos are fun and highly interesting.
The thing about those techniques in Mair is that much of his other material comes directly from other, earlier, Fechtbücher. I can match some of his halfsword material page-by-page with Gladiatoria, for example, and his buckler material with Talhoffer and Kal, etc., etc. Of course he twists some of it, such as putting Talhoffer's Langenschilt material in with figures in full armor even though that was never an armored form, but still, a lot of the techniques are directly connectable to older sources that he just had copied. That being the case, isn't it more likely that Mair found those weird techniques in some older book? None of that material is in any other book I've seen, but it's easily possible that the book from which he took it hasn't survived. That seems like his MO, at any rate, although I'm certainly no Mair scholar.
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Hal Siegel
Industry Professional
Location: Austin, Texas Joined: 30 Aug 2003
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Mon 27 Jul, 2009 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| James Head wrote: |
I'm actually the author of the videos you posted the link to. Yeah, I've got some goofy vids on my profile, but most of them are dedicated to the study of PHM's various peasant weapon techniques |
No offense intended, I think the fact that you're working out Mair is awesome.
| Quote: |
Just two weeks ago I had the chance to video tape some more stuff on the two handed Flail with my friends at MEMAG. I hope to have it edited and published on my profile within the week. |
Cool - give a yell when they're online.
| Quote: | | Anyhow, I hope that more people will become interested in studying the two handed Flail in the future. I would go so far as to suggest that is an important part of military history, and certainly was more prevalent than the Knightly Flail that we see so often in TV and Movies. |
"It's perfectly safe - the chain takes up all of the impact!" - badly paraphrased quote from Knightriders
More fun with Mair and "peasant" weapons - here's a couple of German reenactors playing with scythes:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/brennuskrux/3616...598006836/
Hal Siegel - TherionArms
http://www.therionarms.com
http://www.facebook.com/TherionArms
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James Head
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| Posted: Mon 27 Jul, 2009 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Hal Siegel wrote: | | James Head wrote: |
I'm actually the author of the videos you posted the link to. Yeah, I've got some goofy vids on my profile, but most of them are dedicated to the study of PHM's various peasant weapon techniques |
No offense intended, I think the fact that you're working out Mair is awesome./ |
I wasn't offended. I agree that I've got some funny vids. 
By the way, I just posted my newest video about the Flail. Check it out!
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Mon 27 Jul, 2009 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| James Head wrote: | | By the way, I just posted my newest video about the Flail. Check it out! |
James, those are excellent, well-done videos. I'm very impressed!
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Wed 05 Aug, 2009 1:57 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Curl wrote: | | True, and a spike would be a great addition to a mace for that reason, yet not all maces had them, and for the ones that don't I just don't see how you can quickly recover, not to mention that a spear and poleaxe have little bearing on how you use a one handed mace (sorry, I think we may have been talking about two different weapons.). |
Don't underestimate the thrusting capability of a mace without a top-spike. I speak with the authority of somebody who has been busted in the face by a baton that bounced from a block (it was originally being swung) and unintentionally ended up thrusting straight into my nose. If that thrust had been intentional (in the sense of followed up with intentional force), I might have a big chunk of my upper jaw missing today.
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Reinier van Noort
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M. Eversberg II
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| Posted: Wed 05 Aug, 2009 5:53 am Post subject: |
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That'll teach him to zornhut against longpoint 
M.
This space for rent or lease.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 05 Aug, 2009 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: | | Michael Curl wrote: | | True, and a spike would be a great addition to a mace for that reason, yet not all maces had them, and for the ones that don't I just don't see how you can quickly recover, not to mention that a spear and poleaxe have little bearing on how you use a one handed mace (sorry, I think we may have been talking about two different weapons.). |
Don't underestimate the thrusting capability of a mace without a top-spike. I speak with the authority of somebody who has been busted in the face by a baton that bounced from a block (it was originally being swung) and unintentionally ended up thrusting straight into my nose. If that thrust had been intentional (in the sense of followed up with intentional force), I might have a big chunk of my upper jaw missing today. |
Yeah, exactly what I meant about thrusting even when there isn't a spike at the top one still has a very stout short stafflike object that can be thrust forward faster than one can recover for another strike.
Even very short weapons can be used with stafflike techniques but obviously range is going to be very close with a short weapon: Not only strikes or thrusts but parries and blocks and when in very close almost wresting range one can grab a short weapon with one hand near the butt and one hand near the " mace " head.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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