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Robert Subiaga Jr.
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 Posted: Fri 10 Jul, 2009 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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I may not be the best to speak authoratatively on hide glue and scabbards; I've only made a couple recently. But absolutely no problems, not even discoloration.
In fact, I prefer to go with a thin layer of wool felt, rather than bare wood, on the scabbard interior, the felt being glued on of course with the hide glue. A lot of potential contact, albeit through any pores in the felt. And as I said--not a problem in sight, even when leaving the blade in the scabbard for two or three weeks straight.
Starting in a hollowed log of wood—some thousand miles up a river, with an infinitesimal prospect of returning! I ask myself "Why?" and the only echo is "damned fool!...the Devil drives...
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Ed S.
Location: San Diego Joined: 08 Apr 2009
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Sat 11 Jul, 2009 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| Robert Subiaga Jr. wrote: | PVA has the capability under certain conditions to slowly break down, one of the components being acetic acid. Ergo, the cause of discoloration.
Nevertheless, some distinction needs to be made about whether your concerns about corrosion are primarily aesthetic or functional. There is a world of difference between ferric oxide and ferrous oxide. Only "red rust" eats away iron/steel to become a danger to functionality. |
They are cosmetic flaws, no rust has turned up yet. I can get them out easily enough with some scotch-brite, but the scabbards will be useless.
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JE Sarge
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 11 Jul, 2009 5:04 am Post subject: |
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Ed,
I make my scabbards from Home Depot wood too and I ran into the same problem. I narrowed the problem down to the Elmers. The wood glue is the problem. Whenever I would use Elmers or other water-based wood glues, I found that even a slight amount of excess inside the scabbard touching the blade would leave tarnish/discoloration. It did not matter what I did after, no amount of scabbard treatment or oiling would take care of the problem. I have a scabbard I have had for a year now that I made that will still discolor the blade if left in it overnight.
On my last scabbard project, I replaced using wood-glue with using a synthetic epoxy (Gorilla Glue) to glue my planks to one another. Guess what? Problem solved. I can leave the sword in the scabbard indefinately and it does not develop the same problem. The Home Depot poplar is quite dry enough for your purpose, and once given a linseed oil coat on the inside, the wood itself does not retain much moisture at all.
How to fix your existing scabbard? I have to say, it would be nearly impossible. You would have to scrape out the wood-glue excess inside the scabbard. I would not say your scabbard is useless though. I would suggest to just use it to carry your sword at period events, etc - then store the sword out of the scabbard. Make plans to do a new scabbard in the future were will not use wood glue, but an epoxy or resin that is not water-based to glue the planks together.
Good luck!
J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com
"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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Justin King
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 11 Jul, 2009 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | What do you guys think of hide glue? That's what I've used on grips and other things that I've built for "period" use. |
I have not tried it.
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Justin King
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 11 Jul, 2009 7:10 am Post subject: |
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You might try the tung oil trick I mentioned before giving up on the scabbards. It worked in my case, the scabbard in question has been in my truck console with the knife in it for about a year now. Being parked outside all the time, year round, it has now been subjected to some pretty extensive climactic abuse and not a hint of the corrosion/blackening has re-appeared.
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Ed S.
Location: San Diego Joined: 08 Apr 2009
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Sat 11 Jul, 2009 11:33 am Post subject: |
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Wow, thanks guys for all of the help here. It sounds like many people have seen this problem with the Elmer's glue before. Now I am curious and want to nail it down, so, I am going to buy two more planks of the same wood and try a different glue. I'll post back with the results. Perhaps I was more sloppy with the glue than I thought.
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Brian K.
Industry Professional
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Joined: 01 Jan 2008
Posts: 727
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| Posted: Sat 11 Jul, 2009 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: glue is your problem |
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| Thom R. wrote: | | sorry to chime in late but to emphasize what the other guys have said - it is definitely the glue. you need to start over with another glue - Titebond Original I have found to be safe although you still should be careful not to use so much that you will leave a ribbon inside the scabbard where the steel can come in direct contact. and make sure you use Titebond original - some of the other varieties of titebond are not safe either. tr |
I use the same glue, and never had a problem.
Brian Kunz
www.dbkcustomswords.com
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Sean Flynt
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Sat 11 Jul, 2009 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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I have had this problem to one degree or another with every scabbard I own, both ones I made myself and ones I purchased. I've used a variety of woods and glues, the least corrosive in my experience is simple Elmer's wood glue or hide glue.
I'm starting to think that while glue and/or wood can cause this problem, it is also a matter of what gets trapped inside the scabbard when you put the sword in. If you put it in on a humid day, perhaps, the moisture gets trapped inside. A dry day, nothing.
Sometimes I can put a sword in a scabbard for weeks with no discoloration, other times I leave that same sword in that same scabbard for a day and see something. It just doesn't make sense.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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James R.Fox
Location: Youngstowm,Ohio Joined: 29 Feb 2008
Posts: 253
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| Posted: Sun 12 Jul, 2009 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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Sirs-My understanding of period scabbarda is the this is why they had lanbs' skin glued to the inside with period glue. The lanolin in the wool protected the steel.
Ja68ms
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 13 Jul, 2009 2:57 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | I have had this problem to one degree or another with every scabbard I own, both ones I made myself and ones I purchased. I've used a variety of woods and glues, the least corrosive in my experience is simple Elmer's wood glue or hide glue.
I'm starting to think that while glue and/or wood can cause this problem, it is also a matter of what gets trapped inside the scabbard when you put the sword in. If you put it in on a humid day, perhaps, the moisture gets trapped inside. A dry day, nothing.
Sometimes I can put a sword in a scabbard for weeks with no discolouration, other times I leave that same sword in that same scabbard for a day and see something. It just doesn't make sense. |
Some of my swords may have been in the scabbard for years at a time and showed no rust or staining so maybe Michael in on to something about strapping humidity in the scabbard being the problem ? Put it in dry and with a scabbard with no humid air strapped into it and you can be fine for long periods of time but forget to wipe off some moisture and put it into the scabbard once and rust can show up in mere hours if not minutes !
Good to give a wipe with an oily cloth every time the sword is pulled out and put back in.
The micro climate in one's house can be good or bad for swords and a sword taken out for use outdoors and then put away probably has more chances of being put away in a humid scabbard than a collection piece that never or rarely gets exposed to humidity or temperature changes. A cold sword from outside put away into a scabbard in a warm and humid house will probably have beads of condensation forming on the blade. A good idea to wipe/oil the blade after it has adjusted to room temperature before putting it in any scabbard ?
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Al Muckart
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| Posted: Tue 21 Jul, 2009 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | What do you guys think of hide glue? That's what I've used on grips and other things that I've built for "period" use. |
I've used it. It has some advantages over PVA in that it isn't as hygroscopic (the problem with PVA is that it absorbs and then of-gasses atmospheric moisture).
It is incredibly strong, and totally reversible in that heat and moisture will remelt it and allow the joint to be nondestructively disassembled. This is why it's used by high-end luthiers because it allows for repairs.
It shrinks as it dries so it doesn't need to be clamped the same way PVA requires in order to be strong.
The down side of it I found for long narrow joints like on a scabbard is that it tends to cool before I had a chance to bring the surfaces into contact. Doubtless this was an issue with my own relative unfamiliarity with the glue and lack of skill as a woodworker, but I don't know how to do it better so it's still a problem for me 
--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
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Al Muckart
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| Posted: Tue 21 Jul, 2009 12:56 am Post subject: |
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Hi James,
| James R.Fox wrote: | | Sirs-My understanding of period scabbarda is the this is why they had lanbs' skin glued to the inside with period glue. The lanolin in the wool protected the steel. |
To my knowlege this was true of some early-period "viking" scabbards, but not for medieval ones.
--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
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Douglas S
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| Posted: Wed 22 Jul, 2009 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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Just don't use too much glue - to a degree to which it starts leaking on the inside of the scabbard.
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This is a standard topic