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Lee O'Hagan
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Posted: Thu 18 Jun, 2009 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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Have any of you KOA repeat customers emailed to ask about the increase,
more the already in stock older stuff thats gone up,?
i'd think they'd be the first to go in any future sale,
i havent dealt with KOA myself,but have read some great feedback from fellow forumites on here about them,
the prices you guys are mentioning are in and around what we pay in pounds for them over here,
three years ago i looked at a DT rapier at a fair,£425ish
custom quote over here was a good £50-100 cheaper, a far longer wait but,,,,,,
hope all you people stateside get some good deals when the sales appear.which, with the quality of the competition mentioned looks very likely.
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Joel Chesser
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Posted: Thu 18 Jun, 2009 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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I'm going to go ahead and throw my lot in with the "Del Tin is raising his prices" theory as I noticed that Viking-shield.com, which also had fairly good prices on their Del Tin viking swords, has also raised their prices to about the level of KOA.
..." The person who dosen't have a sword should sell his coat and buy one."
- Luke 22:36
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Dustin R. Reagan
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Posted: Thu 18 Jun, 2009 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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Aaron Morris wrote: | this may be unrelated but locally the prices on chain link fabric has gone up 100% in the last year or so, perhaps steel is just becoming more expensive |
Personally, I don't buy this line of reasoning. Even with raising steel prices, I would be very surprised if steel accounts for any more than 3% of the total cost of most swords priced $500+. I make knives as a hobby, and use several different carbon, spring or tool steels (which are the same steels used by most sword manufacturers). To make a 12" knife (~1 lb of steel), i will end up spending between $2-$5 on steel (this is a high-side estimate). Multiply this by a factor of ~3.5 for a sword ($10 - $17.5). And this is at low volume prices (ordering several hundred pounds of steel will cost less per lbs than what i end up buying). What really costs a lot, per item (knife/sword/whatever) produced is energy -- to heat up your steel ( if you forge) and electricity for grinding/stock removal. What costs even more than that is time!
I assume the same thing applies with chain link fabric. Just think...even if someone gave you tons of steel...how would you make it into chain link fabric? Well you'd need a highly specialized machine (or tons of semi-skilled labor), and lots of time & fuel (energy).
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Bruno Giordan
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Posted: Fri 19 Jun, 2009 12:35 am Post subject: |
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What about the cost for casting hilts? They are lost wax castings (designed by a brescian artisan of fame) and I found that bronze castings has gone up quite a bit recently. It might be the same for steel castings. If you add shipping charges and other crisis related factors there could be an easy explanation. I recently made an inquiry to send a military cap to a US friend, just a few hundred grams of cap would cost him 48 euros in sending charges. If you consider that a sword is very long, so probably going out of normal length parameters by italian postal services, you might have a complete answer.
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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Posted: Fri 19 Jun, 2009 7:52 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | Personally, I don't buy this line of reasoning. Even with raising steel prices, I would be very surprised if steel accounts for any more than 3% of the total cost of most swords priced $500+. I make knives as a hobby, and use several different carbon, spring or tool steels (which are the same steels used by most sword manufacturers). To make a 12" knife (~1 lb of steel), i will end up spending between $2-$5 on steel (this is a high-side estimate). Multiply this by a factor of ~3.5 for a sword ($10 - $17.5). And this is at low volume prices (ordering several hundred pounds of steel will cost less per lbs than what i end up buying). What really costs a lot, per item (knife/sword/whatever) produced is energy -- to heat up your steel ( if you forge) and electricity for grinding/stock removal. What costs even more than that is time!
I assume the same thing applies with chain link fabric. Just think...even if someone gave you tons of steel...how would you make it into chain link fabric? Well you'd need a highly specialized machine (or tons of semi-skilled labor), and lots of time & fuel (energy). |
I have no idea why Del Tin prices have gone up but the cost of everything has gone up radically in the last three years, from raw materials, to utilites, to gas, to packing supplies, you name it. Two examples just for us. a 4'x8' sheet of cold rolled mild steel ran just under $45 in 2006 ( and that was up due to the first mysterious spike in gas prices that we've all come to just accept and pay now ) as of last week, that same sheet costs us $98, over a 100% increase in price. Brass rivets cost $11.55 for a box of 150 in 2006, they now run $8.66 for 50, or to get the 2006 quantity $25.88, in other words an over 200% increase in three years ( brass, bronze copper have all done this ). My guess is simply that the cumulative effect of all the cost increases is that prices had to go up to maintaine, i'll venture to guess based on our expiriences not increase but just maintaine, thier existing profit level.
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M. Eversberg II
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Posted: Fri 19 Jun, 2009 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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It's the cost of energy. It's going up and up and up...
I wonder how many kw go into that sheet of steel you mentioned, from ripping it from the earth, to refining it, to rolling it out and shipping it to your house.
M.
This space for rent or lease.
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Jonathan Atkin
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Posted: Fri 19 Jun, 2009 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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the USD has dropped 20% in value from what it was a few years ago so this might also be a factor
"If I must choose between righteousness and peace, I choose righteousness''. - Theodore Roosevelt
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Maurizio D'Angelo
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Posted: Sat 20 Jun, 2009 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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Allan Senefelder wrote: |
I have no idea why Del Tin prices have gone up but the cost of everything has gone up radically in the last three years, from raw materials, to utilites, to gas, to packing supplies, you name it. Two examples just for us. a 4'x8' sheet of cold rolled mild steel ran just under $45 in 2006 ( and that was up due to the first mysterious spike in gas prices that we've all come to just accept and pay now ) as of last week, that same sheet costs us $98, over a 100% increase in price. Brass rivets cost $11.55 for a box of 150 in 2006, they now run $8.66 for 50, or to get the 2006 quantity $25.88, in other words an over 200% increase in three years ( brass, bronze copper have all done this ). My guess is simply that the cumulative effect of all the cost increases is that prices had to go up to maintaine, i'll venture to guess based on our expiriences not increase but just maintaine, thier existing profit level. |
Hi Allan,
I agree.
I know that the steel Del Tin is not common. (1065-5160 are easily available). I have tried in Italy and Germany in different retailers, nothing that resembled it. To get needs it to directly turn to the producers. The least quantities imposed by the producers are great. For they directly are not more even workable, other thermal procedures are needed. If he has renewed his escorts, he could have had notable increases. If you buy 3.000 kg you can make 1000 swords. I believe that the renovation perceived asks for time. Time = increases.
This being a key to explain increases. Also I believe that the level of profit is equal before to. If I knew about these increases, rather than to invest in titles, bought Del Tin's swords.
Just my two cents
Maurizio
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Ryan Whittlinger
Industry Professional
Location: Elgin, IL Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 6
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Posted: Sat 27 Jun, 2009 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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Ryan from KultOfAthena.com here. As there has been a lot of speculation about out recent price increase on the Del Tin swords, I thought I would clear it up once and for all. Oddly, with all these theories, not one person bothered to ask us what prompted the increase.
So here is what happened. We started stocking Del Tin swords with the intent to try and off set the poor Dollar to Euro exchange by offering lower prices for our customers. We were under no pricing agreement with Del Tin, so we set our prices as we saw fit. Soon after some European customers started complaining to Del Tin that it was cheaper for them to order from us in the US than directly from Del Tin in Italy. Though this happens many times when comparing dealer prices with manufacturer's retail, Del Tin felt that this made them look bad. As a result we were asked to raise our advertised prices to the equivalent of their retail price after the currency conversion. All other Del Tin dealers were asked to do the same. I respect Fulvio Del Tin and appreciate him allowing us to sell his products. We complied with his request. Currently our prices will work out to the same as ordering directly from Del Tin once you consider the exchange rate, however with reduced shipping costs for our US and Canadian customers. Also as we do stock many Del Tin products, those item can ship immediately as opposed to the normal 2-3 month lead time. I see a lot of people stating that they were "just about to order" or "would have ordered before, but not now". Should this actually be the case, feel free to email me from the website, and we'll see if we can work out a deal for you.
In the future I would encourage anyone who has a question about KOA to contact us directly rather than speculate. I will personally be happy to help you. The time involved in running this business leaves me very little time to frequent these boards, so please direct your concerns to our email address listed on our website.
Thanks
Ryan Whittlinger
KultOfAthena.com
Ryan Whittlinger
www.KultOfAthena.com
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B. Stark
Industry Professional
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Posted: Sat 27 Jun, 2009 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Ryan, and best in business for you I might add.
"Wyrd bi∂ ful aręd"
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Bruno Giordan
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Posted: Sat 27 Jun, 2009 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Ryan Whittlinger wrote: | Ryan from KultOfAthena.com here. As there has been a lot of speculation about out recent price increase on the Del Tin swords, I thought I would clear it up once and for all. Oddly, with all these theories, not one person bothered to ask us what prompted the increase.
So here is what happened. We started stocking Del Tin swords with the intent to try and off set the poor Dollar to Euro exchange by offering lower prices for our customers. We were under no pricing agreement with Del Tin, so we set our prices as we saw fit. Soon after some European customers started complaining to Del Tin that it was cheaper for them to order from us in the US than directly from Del Tin in Italy. Though this happens many times when comparing dealer prices with manufacturer's retail, Del Tin felt that this made them look bad. As a result we were asked to raise our advertised prices to the equivalent of their retail price after the currency conversion. All other Del Tin dealers were asked to do the same. I respect Fulvio Del Tin and appreciate him allowing us to sell his products. We complied with his request. Currently our prices will work out to the same as ordering directly from Del Tin once you consider the exchange rate, however with reduced shipping costs for our US and Canadian customers. Also as we do stock many Del Tin products, those item can ship immediately as opposed to the normal 2-3 month lead time. I see a lot of people stating that they were "just about to order" or "would have ordered before, but not now". Should this actually be the case, feel free to email me from the website, and we'll see if we can work out a deal for you.
In the future I would encourage anyone who has a question about KOA to contact us directly rather than speculate. I will personally be happy to help you. The time involved in running this business leaves me very little time to frequent these boards, so please direct your concerns to our email address listed on our website.
Thanks
Ryan Whittlinger
KultOfAthena.com |
The general economic situation is bad, also I live in Italy like Maurizio, we know that steel and expenses for manifacturers have gone up considerably.
Nothing to tell about your considerations, simply what has happened might have been caused by factors affecting many italian exporters to the US.
I think somebody doing a business like that of swords replicas in Italy is pretty lucky to be in business today, given the hardships our enterprises must deal with for a wide range of factors.
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JE Sarge
Industry Professional
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Posted: Sat 27 Jun, 2009 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Ryan Whittlinger wrote: | Ryan from KultOfAthena.com here. As there has been a lot of speculation about out recent price increase on the Del Tin swords, I thought I would clear it up once and for all. Oddly, with all these theories, not one person bothered to ask us what prompted the increase.
So here is what happened. We started stocking Del Tin swords with the intent to try and off set the poor Dollar to Euro exchange by offering lower prices for our customers. We were under no pricing agreement with Del Tin, so we set our prices as we saw fit. Soon after some European customers started complaining to Del Tin that it was cheaper for them to order from us in the US than directly from Del Tin in Italy. Though this happens many times when comparing dealer prices with manufacturer's retail, Del Tin felt that this made them look bad. As a result we were asked to raise our advertised prices to the equivalent of their retail price after the currency conversion. All other Del Tin dealers were asked to do the same. I respect Fulvio Del Tin and appreciate him allowing us to sell his products. We complied with his request. Currently our prices will work out to the same as ordering directly from Del Tin once you consider the exchange rate, however with reduced shipping costs for our US and Canadian customers. Also as we do stock many Del Tin products, those item can ship immediately as opposed to the normal 2-3 month lead time. I see a lot of people stating that they were "just about to order" or "would have ordered before, but not now". Should this actually be the case, feel free to email me from the website, and we'll see if we can work out a deal for you.
In the future I would encourage anyone who has a question about KOA to contact us directly rather than speculate. I will personally be happy to help you. The time involved in running this business leaves me very little time to frequent these boards, so please direct your concerns to our email address listed on our website.
Thanks
Ryan Whittlinger
KultOfAthena.com |
This is exactly why I will always return to KoA to do business. Thank you for coming to the forums and discussing this!
J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com
"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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Mike Arledge
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Posted: Sat 27 Jun, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Don't get me wrong, I never was blasting the KOA guys, it was just an unfavorable increase to the humble collector.
Mike J Arledge
The Dude Abides
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Glen A Cleeton
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Posted: Sat 27 Jun, 2009 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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What seems to have been a wild swing in the cost of Del tins was the original prices. That was fairly evident. In looking at the new and broadly painted price structure, there really hasn't been that much of an increase over the years. The msrp for Del Tin had gone through this in the past as well. One may have seen a slight difference between Imperial and Valentine vs the pricing at Albion and Elwell. It was then and has been for years maybe a $10-$20 difference at the most. Both Imperial and Valentine offered the line up until '99 or so. Christian Fletcher as well. When those sales were discontinued, the demand did affect the wait times for direct orders. Retails usually get batchs more quickly than service to individual orders. Randall Knives would be another example of that. Dealers and forward looking business usually gets the priorities.
Consider a 5157 that I adopted from someone in 2003. The previous owner had ordered direct from Italy back when waits were more like eight months to a year instead of what has been a pretty quick turn around this half of the decade. That 5157 direct with shipping and tax came out to something like $400. So, at that rate of increase over six years really hasn't been that great when compared to other solid shops like the American 3 A. Even Windlass has gone up in the past few months. What had been a rock steady price for the Patton (just an example) the sword sold at $129 for several years. Last year I saw they had bumped that sword up to $149 retail and are now msrp $169. Look to the Hanwei katana as another example of price hikes over the years.
What? No one has grabbed that second hand claymore?
Cheers
GC
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David Lewis Smith
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Posted: Sun 28 Jun, 2009 5:47 am Post subject: |
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I ordered an Albion from KOA last year, in doing so spent about 3 hours one night on the phone with the owner, his profit margin is very small.
David L Smith
MSG (RET)
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Christopher Gregg
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Posted: Sun 28 Jun, 2009 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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Ryan Whittlinger wrote: | Ryan from KultOfAthena.com here... I see a lot of people stating that they were "just about to order" or "would have ordered before, but not now". Should this actually be the case, feel free to email me from the website, and we'll see if we can work out a deal for you.
In the future I would encourage anyone who has a question about KOA to contact us directly rather than speculate. I will personally be happy to help you. The time involved in running this business leaves me very little time to frequent these boards, so please direct your concerns to our email address listed on our website.
Thanks
Ryan Whittlinger
KultOfAthena.com |
Ryan, I thank you for replying to this post, and I appologize if it seemed that I was inciting a riot over the Del Tin price increase. It was only my intention to point out to the Del Tin and KoA fans that prices had indeed gone up. I didn't mean to start a speculatory inquisition as to why, but you know how message boards work, and people do try to puzzle things out.
As to you explanation, thank you. It's great to get an honest answer, and I'm sure we all understand that business has it's necessary "evils." Also, thank you very much for the offer to work a deal. Your reputation for helping out the sword collecting community is well known, as is KoA's great customer service. It's really just the current economic situation that has slowed most of the community's buying habits - nothing that's your fault or ours. It just sucks, that's all. I really just wanted to say for everyone on the list thank you for doing all that you've done to help us with our hobby (hope everyone doesn't mind me saying so). When things improve in the economy, I for one will certainly do business with you. You can count on it!
Christopher Gregg
'S Rioghal Mo Dhream!
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Jean Thibodeau
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Posted: Mon 29 Jun, 2009 9:07 am Post subject: |
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Christopher Gregg wrote: | [
Ryan, I thank you for replying to this post, and I appologize if it seemed that I was inciting a riot over the Del Tin price increase. It was only my intention to point out to the Del Tin and KoA fans that prices had indeed gone up. I didn't mean to start a speculatory inquisition as to why, but you know how message boards work, and people do try to puzzle things out.
As to you explanation, thank you. It's great to get an honest answer, and I'm sure we all understand that business has it's necessary "evils." Also, thank you very much for the offer to work a deal. Your reputation for helping out the sword collecting community is well known, as is KoA's great customer service. It's really just the current economic situation that has slowed most of the community's buying habits - nothing that's your fault or ours. It just sucks, that's all. I really just wanted to say for everyone on the list thank you for doing all that you've done to help us with our hobby (hope everyone doesn't mind me saying so). When things improve in the economy, I for one will certainly do business with you. You can count on it! ![Happy](images/smiles/icon_smile.gif) |
I will second here everything Christopher said and I might have e-mailed you with a question about the price increase of Del Tins if I was planning on buying one currently. ( Haven't given up on them but with the higher prices I will be more selective in buying only the one's that appeal to me the most ).
Ryan: One thing I do believe is that you do your best to give people the best prices possible compatible with keeping your business viable and you do have at great variety of products, great customer service and the first place I look to see if you have something I might want other than buying directly from a custom maker.
I also think that no one seemed to blame you for the price increase and the " speculations " where mostly about market forces and general theories about vendors in general, but you are right to point out at " asking " a direct question to you would have been the logical thing to do.
Anyway, among the best vendors out there you are one of " THE BEST OF THE BEST ".
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Roger Hooper
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Posted: Wed 07 Oct, 2009 9:01 am Post subject: |
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I often check the New Items area at KOA, and I've noticed that since this affair over the Del Tin price increase last June, not a single new model from that company has been added to the website. There are still many Del Tin's in stock, but no new model additions. Before June, a few new Del Tins would show up every week or so.
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JE Sarge
Industry Professional
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Posted: Wed 07 Oct, 2009 9:49 am Post subject: |
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I imagine they won't be adding any more to their inventory until they sell what they have. Sadly, at those prices in this economy, alot of those remaining Del Tins are going to end up collecting dust.
J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com
"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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Mike Arledge
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Posted: Wed 07 Oct, 2009 9:52 am Post subject: |
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JE Sarge wrote: | I imagine they won't be adding any more to their inventory until they sell what they have. Sadly, at those prices in this economy, alot of those remaining Del Tins are going to end up collecting dust. |
I think it has less to do with the economy, and more to do with things like the Tinker Line and the Valiant Models which now offer a similar level of fit and finish, handling, and are ready to cut with as bought. Even for sparring, there are a lot cheaper options similar to DelTin. If prices were lower, that might be different.
I think that other manufacturers have closed the gap, or even lapped DT, and over time they will have to either cater to a smaller market for their product, or come up with something more competitite at that price point. They have a lot of unique and inspired models though sadly, most are pricey for what they are from a useability standpoint.
Mike J Arledge
The Dude Abides
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