[Francisco Simões]

Hi
I would like to share this experience with my fellow myArmoury mates.
I would not post this if I would not fell extremely displeased and with my confidence in Albion Armourers US costumer care completely splintered!
After buying 8 swords (Sorry, not 9) to Albion Europe and having the best judgment on Soren costumer care, this was what happened when I asked Albion US for some specs. on the pommel of the Hospitaller sword. Explaining them the information would be for a custom-made project I have running. The following answer was given to me:

“-I do not have any of that information in front of me and I can not give out
the exact specs like that. Sorry and hope you are enjoying your swords you
have purchased.”


Now, when all specs. of many Albion swords are reviewed here on myArmoury and are also present on both Albion sites, not pommel specs., but all other specs. I do not understand what kind of less gentle answer that is!!!!
Maybe the only way legitimate to know that is to buy the Hospitaller sword it self!?

But no, not giving it to a costumer that have bought 8 Albion swords in last 2 years, and had the decency of telling them that he would use the info. (of just one pommel) for a one of a kind custom-made sword. What a threatening industry undercover action this one!!! No it is not that, it’s just lack of good will.

Sorry, but that kind of answer is not what I call costumer care.
Godspeed
Francisco

[Sean Flynt]

I think it's a reasonable response.

Albion has invested in its products a great deal of time, research, thought and experimentation. Some companies and individual manufacturers aren't wiling to make that investment, and would rather just take Albion's work. I would guess that if somebody posted all the exact dimensions of a popular Albion sword, within a year or two some company would have aesthetic duplicates being made in India or China for half the price. As for data in reviews--there's a big difference between data for blade length and data for a blade's thickness along it's whole length, or the exact weight and dimensions of a pommel. One can get such information by investing in a sample, dismantling it and taking the desired measures in order to duplicate it. It's still unethical, in my view, but at least one will have paid something for the data.

An analogy: I've owned 8 or 9 Mac computers, but Apple isn't going to give me proprietary software details if I tell them I want to build my own machine. A more personal example: I'm not going to work for free just because somebody tells me they love my writing. I have to make a living and I make my living primarily as a writer. It's not inappropriate of me to decline the request. It's inappropriate of the requester to put me in the position of declining.

In your case, I'd say you should do whatever you need to do to gain access to antique swords--study, travel, publish, beg, buy, experiment, etc. That will give you raw data of your own. You won't have to rely on anyone's interpretation. In short, you'll be on an equal information footing with Albion and other top-tier manufacturers, but you'll have arrived there by your own work.

[Joe Fults]

So you ask Albion to give you their proprietary product information, so that you can give that proprietary information to another vendor making similar products, for that vendor's use in making a product for you. Why would you expect Albion to consider doing that? In all honesty I think they were being very polite and very professional by replying to you at all.

[Chad Arnow]

Would you consider asking Honda for detailed specs of their engines so you could have Toyota make you a version? What would Honda's answer to your query be?

Albion's swords (like A&A's, ATrims, etc., and custom smiths) are a result of experience and an expensive and time-consuming research & development phase. They shouldn't be expected to give out their heard-earned research for free, especially for a custom project with another maker.

Many smiths and makers (rightfully so) feel it's the duty of a maker to do their own homework. So the person making this custom project should do the same kind of research Albion has done if they want to make a similar product. Again, Albion has spent time and a great deal of money on R&D. They shouldn't be expected to give it away for free.

[Dan P]

[Gabriel Lebec]

From the title I was expecting (but would still have been surprised by) one of the following: excessive delay, custom fee issue, rudeness, refusal to address product defect, significant lack of communication, etc. Instead we seem to be discussing a polite declination to obtain exact measurements for a product you apparently do not intend to buy.

I originally posted a more detailed paragraph on this matter but it seems others have beaten me to the punch with as good or better points. So I will just say that I am sure that Albion has nothing but good will to anyone who helps keep them afloat with their purchases, and by most accounts treats their customers accordingly. I am not one to defend a breach of contract, but no such breach occurred here; I think this is a case where we need to relax, remember that as friendly and accommodating and public a company that Albion has been, they are still a business with the rights accorded to any business.

[Francisco Simões]

Hello
The intention is not to make a copy of a pommel to put it on another blade, grip, etc. For long time I know that doesn’t work like that. That knowledge is not hermetic, and reserved to only a few!
The intention was to take perception of some details in order to recreate my own idea and drawings.
So what are the specs on the hands on review? Fake specs to avoid people that didn’t pay for the weapons to have access to the true Grail? Maybe the true ones are locked in a safe!
Maybe Albion should take legal action against the people that are revealing their secrets in the reviews section!
Or else not, and the specs are true, and some reviews are plain and explicit publicity!?
But Albion US can be rested, as paladins to defend their well kept secrets are here.
Godspeed

[Nathan Robinson]

Oh, come on, Francisco. Perhaps you aren't aware of the concept of intellectual property or even trade secrets. None of this is an issue of conspiracy or anything underhanded. In fact, it's quite acceptable and suggested that any business wishing to be successful consider those things.

To even suggest that a company does not have the right to control access to information regarding their products is absurd. Every company in existence has the right to reveal as much or as little as they deem appropriate. No customer is entitled to this information. Your stance is quite out of line.

There are many resources on the 'net that discuss intellectual property and related business concepts should you wish to research the issue.

[Francisco Simões]

Of course they have the right to do whatever they pleased. That's why the topic is called "lack of good will" and not "lack of legal reasons for this refusal".
Their reply is not coherent with everything described above.
Thank you for your guidance on intellectual property just the same Nathan.
Francisco

[Taylor Ellis]

I think the politeness in the reply is indicative of good will IMO.

You asked, the politely declined. They don't owe you anything.

Having said that, for your custom sword, surely you could look the pommel style up in Records and simply tell the smith you want that type of pommel?

[Chad Arnow]

[Jean Thibodeau]

I think that one can always ask politely for information and one can be refused politely information.

Maybe a general question might have been answered but detailed specifications or fabricating techniques or secrets would have been a lot to ask for.

I guess it depends a lot on what specifically you where asking for and in what degree of detail ?

I do think that your Topic title should be changed to something less " dramatic " as I too expected the subject to be a refusal to fix a problem with a purchase or a problem related to actual customer service.

A simple question like, Topic title: " My request to Albion, reasonable or not ? ".

Maybe phrased this way you would have gotten about the same answers in content but more sympathetic replies ?

[Peter Lyon]

[M. Eversberg II]

Until Copyleft becomes popular (uncontrolled laughter), IP will stay on a need to know basis. Besides, why would you want to copy someone else's stuff? Design your own, and have fun with it.

M.

[Francisco Simões]

Why do you insist on light and cliché answers, instead you should read all sentences in the posts with more attention.
It's easyer to make a blind man to see, than whom that dosen't want to see.
Godspeed

[Adam Bodorics]

I don't know how much time and effort went into RD at Albion, but I do know that I've put some 8 years only into reading and experimenting (and I'm still pretty far from Albion's quality so it wasn't enough) and you do have to pay for that. Some of the stuff I make could be made by a talented monkey - but talented monkeys can't design stuff, can they?
You know, using CAD, or a grinder or carving wax is not that hard to learn - I can make a nice hollow ground blade with nothing else than a single angle grinder and some of my friends can quickly design extremely complicated stuff with CAD. Making a SLO isn't hard either. Understanding how do swords work, why they work that way, and all the subtle things is the really hard part, the part that needs constant refining and testing and refining and testing...
And you're asking for this knowledge and are surprised when they decline.
...
Next time try asking for pictures of originals that inspired said pommel. This still saves you considerable time especially if you get shots at different angles of a same piece, showing you proportions, details etc without effectively stealing Albion's money. Or, if you must use that exact pommel, learn how to calculate dimensions from pictures - you know, there are a few photos up there at Albion's webpage. I know it's not easy, designing a good sword is never easy. But if you learn how to research stuff maybe you'll understand better why did Albion decline your request.

Sorry for the rambling, but I just had a not-too-nice conversation with a guy who wanted me to design a gothic harness which he wanted to have made elsewhere, so I'm a bit upset right now.

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

There is a somewhat paradoxical attitude in stating that raw stats never tell the whole story and then saying that they shoudn't be given in too much detail because it would allow copying

Of course Albion is free to choose the information they let out. However I fail to see how the Hospitalier's pommel alone would warrant a very high level of secrecy. It seems very simple and plain... And without the rest of the proportions it makes very little sense anyway. I interpret the answer as "we don't have keep these numbers handy and I won't be bothering the production guys to get that", which is perfectly understandable, without any call to trade secrets and original research. Or are steel cylinders of certain dimensions trademarked yet ?

As an aside, I find it quite sad that every person interested in more details about antiques has to go and measure for himself. It seems that the information available to the public grows very slowly, compared to what has been reportedly studied... Not everyone can enjoy the same level of access to antiques. The hard part should be making sense of and selecting the significant stats, in order to produce sword designs, not getting the stats in the first place...

[Taylor Ellis]

But Vincent, is the Hospitaller based on an original antique or is it Peter's design?

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

[Allan Senefelder]