| Author |
Message |
Dan Howard
|
 Posted: Tue 13 Jan, 2009 1:55 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
|
Are we talking about actually "swimming" in water or merely staying afloat?
|
|
  |
 |
|
Ben P.
|
| Posted: Tue 13 Jan, 2009 2:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I was thinking swimming and floating as that is an essential if you wish to stay above water 
|
|
|
|
|
JE Sarge
Industry Professional
|
| Posted: Tue 13 Jan, 2009 3:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
There is alot of knowledge in this forum. Is there not a medieval / Renaissance reference that details drowning deaths vs. survivors in an assault, landing, or ship disaster of some sort? I am suprised that I have not seen something along these lines by now...There has to be historical precedent somewhere.
J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com
"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
|
|
|
|
|
|
Xan Stepp
Location: Ithaca, NY Joined: 19 Dec 2008
Posts: 54
|
| Posted: Tue 13 Jan, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | I was thinking swimming and floating as that is an essential if you wish to stay above water
|
No, swimming and floating are very different. When you swim you can use your arms and leg to exert a downward or upward force on the water to move you up or down. For example you can swim up to the surface much faster than you can float up. Being able to float makes swimming take much less effort, and you can rest, but you can still swim if you sink.
| Quote: | There is alot of knowledge in this forum. Is there not a medieval / Renaissance reference that details drowning deaths vs. survivors in an assault, landing, or ship disaster of some sort?
|
Nothing comes immediately to mind, but that really means nothing, someone else can probably think of something. However, the problem with those sort of statistics is that they really don't give the information we are looking for. It would have to tell us which survivors and victims were wearing armor, and even more importantly which knew how to swim. In an age where the ability to swim was much less common we have to immediately suspect that any drowning deaths could simply be a result of lack of ability rather than equipment.
Deyr fé, deyja frændur
deyr sjálfur ið sama;
en orðstír deyr aldregi
hveim er sér góðan getur.
|
|
|
|
|
Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
|
| Posted: Tue 13 Jan, 2009 4:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| M. Oroszlany wrote: | I'm not sure to what extent did medieval people know how to swim, but according to some accounts, which might be pure fiction as I can't really recall from where I have this info, some, if not most of the 17-18th century sailors couldn't swim. Would it make sense for ground bound people in the 15th century to know how to swim?
|
I think this is very accurate not only in medieval times but even prion to the 1950's in Europe. My Parents grew up in Europe about an hour from the sea (by mule). They tell me how rare it was for people to know how to swim when they were kids.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
|
|
  |
|
|
Ben P.
|
| Posted: Tue 13 Jan, 2009 6:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Xan Stepp wrote: | | Quote: | I was thinking swimming and floating as that is an essential if you wish to stay above water
|
No, swimming and floating are very different. When you swim you can use your arms and leg to exert a downward or upward force on the water to move you up or down. For example you can swim up to the surface much faster than you can float up. Being able to float makes swimming take much less effort, and you can rest, but you can still swim if you sink.
|
That was a joke after if you don't want to sink, floating is kind of needed
|
|
|
|
|
|
Xan Stepp
Location: Ithaca, NY Joined: 19 Dec 2008
Posts: 54
|
| Posted: Wed 14 Jan, 2009 7:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | That was a joke after if you don't want to sink, floating is kind of needed
|
Sorry about that, tone of voice doesn't always come across well in internet posts. 
Deyr fé, deyja frændur
deyr sjálfur ið sama;
en orðstír deyr aldregi
hveim er sér góðan getur.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ben P.
|
| Posted: Wed 14 Jan, 2009 3:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Xan Stepp wrote: | | Quote: | That was a joke after if you don't want to sink, floating is kind of needed
|
Sorry about that, tone of voice doesn't always come across well in internet posts. |
I apologize 
|
|
|
|
|
|
James R.Fox
Location: Youngstowm,Ohio Joined: 29 Feb 2008
Posts: 253
|
| Posted: Fri 16 Jan, 2009 9:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
Sirs-I am thinking of the accounts I have read about the battle of Towton, the longest and bloodiest battle ever fought in Medieval England. King Edward IV pinned the Lancastrian army against Cock Brook at Towton, and after a day-long battle ( over 12 hrs) smashed it. The casualty lists were added to by the fact that when the Lancastrians tried to retreat, they only had a small bridge to cross the brook,and many hundreds drowned trying to swim across, to the point the bodies dammed up the brook The Yorkist army, was totally pissed, and was giving no quarter, not even to nobles.In fact Edward had given orders prior to the battle to execute all knights and nobles on the spot, also any commons who refused to surrender.Edward was trying to destroy the House of Lancaster once and for all.
Ja68ms
|
|
 |
|
Randall Moffett
|
| Posted: Fri 16 Jan, 2009 9:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think part of the issue of using accounts such as Towton is the context. In many places it does seem likely people could not swim. I'd have to look and see what has been done on the topic. Understanding of swimming aside....The fact they drown after a massive battle might be less armour as armour + fatigue + crowds + water pressure=drowning. After a long day of fighting then being pushed into a moving river and then being caught in the press of hundreds if not more pushing to try getting across the weight of armour is just one of many factors.
At Sluys there are mentions of men without much armour drowning as well so clearly in this case not a factor.
RPM
|
|
|
|
|
James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional
Location: upstate NY Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 587
|
| Posted: Sat 17 Jan, 2009 10:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
The material I have seen on Japanese techniques for swimming in full armour has shown them holding their sword and bow out of the water with one hand and swimming submerged, only surfacing to inhale. I would expect a similar strategy in the case of successful European swimming, though I expect that ditching the helmet and gauntlets would be the first order of business. It's what I'd do.
jamesarlen.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lawrence Parramore
|
| Posted: Sun 18 Jan, 2009 5:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
I remember reading of a French? knight who used to practice swimming in his armour and advocated all should learn as bridges were common and also reading of how the Germans defeated the romans etc but I do not remember his name 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This is a standard topic