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Dan Howard
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 Posted: Wed 04 Feb, 2009 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | | I suspect it happened over and over, and that goes back at least to the Linothorax which I bet evolved the same way (from garments worn under hoplite armor) |
The linothorax was in use at least five hundrd years before hoplites even existed. I doubt it evolved from padding since the Greeks did not wear padding under metal armour.
There is really no such thing as armour "evolution". With the main exception of European articulated plate, the same types of armour were being worn over and over in different parts of the world for thousands of years. For exmaple, helmets change in design but offer no real improvement over bronze age examples. They are simply adapted to meet different requirements. A medieval example is not BETTER than an earlier typology.
You can't use "evolution" to help explain the existence of armour padding. If it was needed it would have been used regardless of the culture and time period.
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Gary Teuscher
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| Posted: Wed 04 Feb, 2009 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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Never having worn a recreation (to the best of our knowledge) of a Linothorax, would it be too stiff to wear under a cuirass? Kind of like wearing a thicker type of quilt under mail?
My guess is they would have worn something under the cuirass, not bare skin. I guess a tunic would work, but maybe something with a little more padding in the shoulders?
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Ville Vinje
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| Posted: Wed 04 Feb, 2009 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Hunter B. wrote: | | Ville Vinje wrote: | About the sagas. There are numerous mentions (more than a hundred) of different types of armor (mostly mail and helmets) in the sagas, non mention any padded leather or textile armor.
Regards,
/Vilhelm
PS: There really are more than a hundred mentions, it is not something i'm just saying. |
How many mention any of the undergarments worn?
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Accually, the sagas mention undergarments an cloathing quite alot. It seemed to be important to give a good description of main characters cloathing and armor.
I am fully aware that most of the sagas were written a few hundred years after the events they portrait. Still, during the post viking era that the authors worked and lived in it seemed like they were of the opinion that padded undergarment was not used or at least not worth mentioning.
Regards,
/Vilhelm
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Wed 04 Feb, 2009 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Ste Kenwright wrote: |
The description I refer to in my post on the topic 'Thoromachus' (thoracomachus) of the garment being 'a finger thick' is from the anonymous C6th Byzantine Treatise on Strategey Section 16 (George T. Dennis (Ed. and Transl.), 1985, Three Byzantine Military Treatises, Washington). It's called a himation (tunic).
"Armor for the head, breastplates, and shin guards should be heavy enough to ward off injury nut not so heavy as to be burdensome and wear down the strength of the soldiers before they get into action. These should provide protection not only because of their material strength but because of their design and their smoothness, which should cause missiles to glance off and fall to the ground. There should also be a space between the armor and the body. It should not be worn directly over ordinary clothing, as some do to keep down the weight of the armor, but over a garment at least a finger thick (daktylos)... The rest of the troops may be provided with coats of mail, breastplates and head coverings fashioned of felt or leather... so that the rough material does not chafe the skin, they should wear padded garments (peristedidia, lit. 'cheast-wrappers') under them, as we recommend for iron breastplates and other items."
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Very interesting! The author is kind enough to state that some people wear ordinary clothing under mail, while others wear thick padding. I think this suggetss that opinions could differ inside one culture, let alone between different ones.
The Strategikon of Emperor Maurice (Byzantine, from around 600 CE) doesn't mention padding under mail in its three-page list of cavalry equipment (I.2) and its less detailed list of infantry equipment (XII.B). Evidently the author was in the “ordinary clothing” camp, because he does mention minor things like a set of files carried in the baldric. I'd be interested to see any other references from Byzantine military manuals!
I agree with those who say that the subarmalis reference in Saxo book IV is to a mail shirt worn concealed. I'd translate the subarmalis passage literally as “if it had not been deflected by the hard iron (ferrum durities) of the undershirt (subarmalis togae).” Medieval authors often use Latin words differently than Caesar or Cicero would have.
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Gary Teuscher
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| Posted: Thu 05 Feb, 2009 11:33 am Post subject: |
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Sean Manning wrote:
| Quote: | | Very interesting! The author is kind enough to state that some people wear ordinary clothing under mail, while others wear thick padding. I think this suggetss that opinions could differ inside one culture, let alone between different ones. |
Yes, I guess we should not assume that everyone did it the same way with regimentation. And my guess is if there was a variance in a more regimented Byzantine army, we would see even more variance in a Viking one or other similar culture..
Ville Vinje wrote:
| Quote: | Accually, the sagas mention undergarments an cloathing quite alot. It seemed to be important to give a good description of main characters cloathing and armor.
I am fully aware that most of the sagas were written a few hundred years after the events they portrait. Still, during the post viking era that the authors worked and lived in it seemed like they were of the opinion that padded undergarment was not used or at least not worth mentioning. |
Actually, if the Sagas were written in the 13th century, we should expect to see more references to padded garments. The one issue with Sagas is they often write about past things with their contemporary viewpoint - including things like tactics. I would think a 13th century saga not mentioning padding when it was worn in contemporary times would actually imply that they feel it is unnecessary to mention padding under mail, even if the padding is worn under mail.
Alternatively, the mention of "coats" of any kind may be a translation issue or viewpoint issue - based on information cited in this post they well could have been referring to military coats like the Troyja.
Or, lastly, we could assume the writer of a Saga (more of a novel based on history than a historical account) knew exactly what the Vikings a few hundred years before had worn, and there were no translation issues, and not specifically mentioning padding under armour is evidence of absence.
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Cody B.
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| Posted: Sat 16 Oct, 2010 12:53 am Post subject: |
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I have to apologize for barging in with a question, but I'm barging in with a question!
I've seen some depictions of Moorish/Granadine soldiers with two layered cloth armor on. The bottom layer seems to be the regular civilian kaftan or derivative (like a jellaba), but the top layer is of shorter sleeves and bottom length and seems to be depicted with more stiffness and fullness. It may be they all originate from one Osprey image and are thus "translations of a mistranslation".
Here's the original Osprey depiction: http://b.imagehost.org/view/0222/7gernade
And two further depictions: http://b.imagehost.org/view/0730/bx8189a & http://b.imagehost.org/view/0565/bx8189b
While I've read about buff felt or leather coats amongst the Western Muslims the visual depictions didn't match up to what I see there. It might be as someone suggested to me a simple cosmetic dress or a woolen coat for protection against the elements. But the latter explanation would seem to fail when you realize it's shorter in the sleeves and the bottom - one today wouldn't wear a tee-shirt jacket if they had on long sleeve clothing beneath!
What I am wondering is if there's any history (outside of the linothorax) for 'padded' cloth armor which does not have any noticeable visual quilting to it (which the usual aketon, gambeson, and the like does have), especially when it comes to either the Muslim world or Western Europe in the medieval period. Where you would have a cloth garment which isn't adorned with a quilted design but simply looks stiff like a linothorax or thick and firm like a buff leather coat.
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Sat 16 Oct, 2010 7:13 am Post subject: |
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Ville,
Not sure that really works for or against padding. The writer may have thought those hundreds of years did not wear under armour but that does not mean they did or did. Further he is not saying those of his time did or did not either. All it means is he thought those of that time did not. Though I think it more likely it was just not mentioned, which proves nothing. Of course it could be more likely as you said he just omitted it. Since we have late 12th century and on accounts indicating mail was used with paddings it is unneeded anyways.
This thread reminds me of someone I came across who told me before cotton men used to fill their under armour with anything they could, even sand. I told him I thought that was a bit crazy and unlikely but left it at that. Then I heard another 3-4 people tell me that while I was in the UK. I to this day wonder where on earth someone came up- with this concept.
RPM
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sat 16 Oct, 2010 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| Randall Moffett wrote: |
This thread reminds me of someone I came across who told me before cotton men used to fill their under armour with anything they could, even sand. I told him I thought that was a bit crazy and unlikely but left it at that. Then I heard another 3-4 people tell me that while I was in the UK. I to this day wonder where on earth someone came up- with this concept.
RPM |
Sand would absorb a lot of blunt trauma and I guess might be good as a filler as long as no holes get made where the sand would flow out !? It would also be heavy I think and if it got wet even more so.
Just an odd thought but " sand " is used as a synonym for " Courage ": | Quote: | | Slang Courage; stamina; perseverance: "She had more sand in her than any girl I ever see; in my opinion she was just full of sand" (Mark Twain). |
Sort of wonder if there could be any connection with the saying and sand being used in padded armour ? Certainly a lot of sand might increase perseverance, stamina in a fight by making someone less sensitive to blows ?
Quote from Google search: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Sand
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Ste Kenwright
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| Posted: Sat 16 Oct, 2010 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| Cody B. wrote: |
What I am wondering is if there's any history (outside of the linothorax) for 'padded' cloth armor which does not have any noticeable visual quilting to it (which the usual aketon, gambeson, and the like does have), especially when it comes to either the Muslim world or Western Europe in the medieval period. Where you would have a cloth garment which isn't adorned with a quilted design but simply looks stiff like a linothorax or thick and firm like a buff leather coat. |
Well, there's the odd case of the stiff shouldered surcoat. In some 13th Medieval images, the shoulders of some of the surcoats stand up from the mailed shoulders beneath in a fashion unlike thin draped cloth, leading some to suggest they are deliberately stiffened. The Matthew Paris illustration of the battle of Hattin shows the same stiffness in what appears to be scale armour. Although I have seen it suggested they conceal leather or armour like a plate of coats, this doesn't seem to fit the pictures where the colour inside is the same as outside and only the mail is visible beneath. I understand reasonably stiff cloth will give this effect, which is the simplest explanation. Just how stiff and why is open to interpretation.
I hope that's helpful.
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Cody B.
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| Posted: Sat 16 Oct, 2010 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Ste Kenwright wrote: | | Cody B. wrote: |
What I am wondering is if there's any history (outside of the linothorax) for 'padded' cloth armor which does not have any noticeable visual quilting to it (which the usual aketon, gambeson, and the like does have), especially when it comes to either the Muslim world or Western Europe in the medieval period. Where you would have a cloth garment which isn't adorned with a quilted design but simply looks stiff like a linothorax or thick and firm like a buff leather coat. |
Well, there's the odd case of the stiff shouldered surcoat. In some 13th Medieval images, the shoulders of some of the surcoats stand up from the mailed shoulders beneath in a fashion unlike thin draped cloth, leading some to suggest they are deliberately stiffened. The Matthew Paris illustration of the battle of Hattin shows the same stiffness in what appears to be scale armour. Although I have seen it suggested they conceal leather or armour like a plate of coats, this doesn't seem to fit the pictures where the colour inside is the same as outside and only the mail is visible beneath. I understand reasonably stiff cloth will give this effect, which is the simplest explanation. Just how stiff and why is open to interpretation.
I hope that's helpful. |
I think it is, thank you Ste Kenwright. Considering the European influence on the Andalusians and how Granadine fashion was seemingly independent from either Europe, North Africa, or the Arabs, it makes me think those are some sort of a surcoat or padded upper garment. If it was long sleeved I could buy it being a more weather-proof "jacket".
It's hard for me to articulate it, but I figure it should be possible for one to create a garment which is simply multiple layers of linen/cotton/whatever sewn along the edges like a regular garment rather than along its entire span in a quilted design. Although thought is some sort of canvas or cloth cover to a buff or felt coat. The one thing to argue against that is how I've seen no such term amongst Muslim armors, just the generic "Al-qutuns". However this goes into the very spirit of this topic, which has had many people argue about how the absence of relics and artifacts of soft armor (given how the elements would ravage it) does not mean they didn't have any.
Which actually reminds me - I've seen something similar to this before with the Sassanids, and I never understood what the depiction was there, either. I'll see if I can't find some primary resource depictions of it later, but while one could argue it is just a simple cloth tunic over their chest, something makes me think it's something stiffer.
http://b.imagehost.org/0889/PERSIA_Parthian_Cataphracts.jpg
http://b.imagehost.org/0314/mon36od.jpg
http://d.imagehost.org/0489/PERSIA_Parthia_Sa...hracts.jpg
There is also the canvas covering to Michael Edelson's gambeson re-creation (http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=11131), which seems to be doing what I was looking for by covering up the quilted design. Question is how popular that practice was.
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Sun 17 Oct, 2010 5:45 am Post subject: |
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There are several 13th c sources that describe a short sleeved or sleeveless cloth armour worn on top of the hauberk in addition to the arming tunic under it. Such a garment would bring about the stiff shoulders seen in some depictions.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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