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Matthew Amt
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 Posted: Tue 18 Jun, 2019 6:40 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, if anything, this argues *against* the things shown in later formal portraits as being quilted armor. If it had been common, they would not have had to improvise it. And you certainly aren't going to have your improvised arrow-protection immortalized in stone!
Matthew
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Len Parker
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| Posted: Tue 18 Jun, 2019 9:12 am Post subject: |
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I don't have the original, but all the translations online either use tunics, coats or jerkins. Obviously he's describing makeshift protection, but isn't makeshift armour still armour? And why would Pliny tell us of the effectiveness of felt against swords if it wasn't used for that purpose?
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Matthew Amt
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| Posted: Tue 18 Jun, 2019 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| Len Parker wrote: | | I don't have the original, but all the translations online either use tunics, coats or jerkins. Obviously he's describing makeshift protection, but isn't makeshift armour still armour? |
Sure, but it doesn't tell us what is being shown in 2nd-century carvings. It even implies that quilted armor was *not* a common thing for the Romans.
| Quote: | | And why would Pliny tell us of the effectiveness of felt against swords if it wasn't used for that purpose? |
Well, ancient writers were wrong about a lot of stuff they wrote about! I don't think Pliny was actually *wrong* about this, mind you, but I'm not sure he is good evidence for the widespread use of felt armor by Roman soldiers.
Matthew
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Len Parker
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| Posted: Tue 18 Jun, 2019 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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This is the latin "atque omnes fere milites aut ex coactis aut ex centonibus aut ex coriis tunicas aut tegimenta fecerant, quibus tela vitarent." I couldn't figure this out. Something about mattresses. 
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Tue 18 Jun, 2019 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | And why would Pliny tell us of the effectiveness of felt against swords if it wasn't used for that purpose?
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You don't need armour to protect you from a sword cut; a winter tunic will stop a sword cut. Proper armour was designed to stop spears and arrows, which were the most common threat on every battlefield for thousands of years.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Len Parker
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| Posted: Wed 19 Jun, 2019 6:58 am Post subject: |
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I've had another go at translating Caesar. It does sound like they made some sort of protective tunic. The key word here is centonibus, which translates to mattress or tarpaulin. So maybe they just made a poncho out of some thick material. This reminds me of that saga where Thorstein makes some protection out of an ox-hide, and is nick-named leatherneck.
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Stephen Curtin
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| Posted: Sat 22 Jun, 2019 3:02 am Post subject: |
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Well a pancho-like garment is what came into my mind when I read that passage. At least that's what I'd do if I were trying to come up with a makeshift protection against missile weapons. No need for sewing or tailoring, just cut a hole in some reasonably thick material and pop it over your head, done.
Éirinn go Brách
Last edited by Stephen Curtin on Sat 22 Jun, 2019 4:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Sat 22 Jun, 2019 4:19 am Post subject: |
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| Len Parker wrote: | | Here's good evidence for standalone quilted armour |
Yeah, that bit from Caesar's Civil Wars about the soldiers making "tunics or coverings" from felts, patchworks, or leathers comes up again and again, I have it on Armour in Texts! The three important things to note are that its specifically in the context of a war of entrenchments, that they are overgarments to stop projectiles (not underarmour padding), and that there are very few other sources for improvised armour anywhere before the 20th century. Most quilted armour was made by teams of professionals with special tools and materials in cities, not by 'soldiers' mothers and sisters.'
I don't see anything about quilting in that passage, other than that centones are some kind of patchwork made from worn-out textiles.
Edit: Linked to the exact passage rather than the whole 'classical' section
www.bookandsword.com
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Len Parker
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Len Parker
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This is a standard topic