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J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
Joined: 25 Dec 2006

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PostPosted: Mon 24 May, 2010 5:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I showed this elsewhere, but I just got some better photos when the sun was low:


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Scott Kowalski




Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA
Joined: 24 Nov 2006

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PostPosted: Mon 24 May, 2010 6:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That is a very nice looking sword that I do not recognize J.D. What is it out of curiosity?
Chris Landwehr 10/10/49-1/1/09 My Mom
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J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
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PostPosted: Mon 24 May, 2010 7:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Scott, the story behind this sword is here: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19674
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Lubomir Slauka




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 22 Feb 2010

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue 25 May, 2010 11:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tim Lison wrote:
Lubomir Slauka wrote:
Hi all
Here is my sword with Brazil -nut pommel made by swordsmith Robert Moc from Slovakia. / www.robert-moc.sk/
Sword was made after archeological find in Trencin in Slovakia. Blade is from bloom iron


Very nice! Do you have pictures of the original it was made after?


Sorry, but I have only two unfocused pictures directly from museum.



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Harry J. Fletcher




Location: Lost in Texas
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PostPosted: Mon 31 May, 2010 1:43 pm    Post subject: Brazil Nut Pommel My Favorite Too         Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing your pictures with us. I must say that the Brazil nut pommel captured my fancy and was the main reason I ordered the Reeve due to its it classic Brazil nut pommel. The others seem to be more of a mushroom shape or a teacozy as oakeshott referred to them. For myself I find that the Brazil Nut pommel makes for a much better handling sword as I can use the hammer hold and use more power while the other shapes of pommel require the handshake hold particularly the Viking and mushroom shaped or near shaped pommels.

From my reading of oakeshott I gathered that this pommel is German in origin and from there even Viking perhaps. By this I mean the mushroom or teacozy with the bottom turned up so as not to interfere with the wrist, the Type A or Type B pommels...anyone else have ideas? As mentioned above I think a hammer hold gives a more secure hold and allows the forearm, wrist, and hand to be held in line for a more powerful downward, oblique striking sword blow. The firmer wrist allows a greater transfer of energy from the forearm than if the wrist used in a flexible whipping action as in a handshake hold. Anyway these are my thoughts in the evolution of the Brazil nut pommel.

To Study The Edge of History
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J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
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PostPosted: Wed 04 Aug, 2010 4:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Brazil Nut Pommel My Favorite Too         Reply with quote

Harry J. Fletcher wrote:
From my reading of oakeshott I gathered that this pommel is German in origin and from there even Viking perhaps. By this I mean the mushroom or teacozy with the bottom turned up so as not to interfere with the wrist, the Type A or Type B pommels...anyone else have ideas? As mentioned above I think a hammer hold gives a more secure hold and allows the forearm, wrist, and hand to be held in line for a more powerful downward, oblique striking sword blow. The firmer wrist allows a greater transfer of energy from the forearm than if the wrist used in a flexible whipping action as in a handshake hold. Anyway these are my thoughts in the evolution of the Brazil nut pommel.


Harry, my recollection from the Oakeshott books is that the oldest Brazil nut forms were found in Norway, although they gained their greatest popularity later in central and east Europe.

I also prefer the true Brazil form over tea cozy form for looks and comfort. I like the wide ones that curve away from the hand (like the Turin sword replicas) because they are very comfortable in both grip positions and also provide leverage against the heel of the hand when combined with the short handle grip. This takes a lot of the weight of a heavy blade off the wrist and fingers. That's a factor in early medieval sword design / handling that gets lost in accounts based only on CoG.

-------------------------------------------------------

PS - I just came across this for sale. Looks maybe real, although I don't believe the grip is original.

http://www.spainswords.com/edadmedia4.html
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J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Aug, 2010 4:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
I recently had opportunity to pick up a 'regular' Del Tin 2130 from the classifieds. The following picture shows it standing next to my extra-long 2130 for comparison (its as good as new, but has a few scuff marks on the laquer, which I have not yet removed). Besides the different blades, there are some subtle differences in the handles that altogether make for some interesting differences in handling properties. Eventually I will have one of them customized to make them more different, but if there is interest I wouldn't mind first doing a detailed comparative review of these two monsters.


I never seem to have time this summer to do the formal review with nice pictures that I had intended, and now one of the swords will be shipped off for customization, so here is a quick comparison of these two DT 2130s. I'm putting it here because I'll touch on a few themes that have come up in this thread, and posting the same picture again below so its clear what I'm talking about:

'Regular' version: overall length 38 5/8, blade Length 32 7/8", grip length 4", PoB 6 3/8 from cross, weight 3.1 lbs.

'Historic' version: overall length 40 1/8", blade Length 34 5/8", grip length 3 5/8", PoB 7 1/2" from cross, weight 3.2 lbs.

They obviously have a lot in common - they are both big one-handed Xa swords with identical pommesl and guards. They both have th typical Del Tin finish -originally dull gray on the furniture and about halfway between satin and mirror on the blade (looks like he switched abruptly from a coarser grain to a very fine grain polish). The pommels are a bit rough with clear hammer blows, but overall I quite like the finish. Personally I like the smooth but grippable leather on the handles. Both swords are quite comfortable with both the handshake and hammer grip, and transition nicely between the two as a result of the very rounded pommel. The flattened but relatively stiff blades on both are a bit on the heavy side (and dull like all Delt Tins) with very modest profile and distal tapir, but not overly so.

And yet desipite these commonalities they have interesting differences in handling properties. This stems obviously from the extended blade in one, and the slightly longer grip in the other (which makes it not quite a 'regular' 2130.

The regular version is (not suprisingly) easier to handle in the typical sense of the word. For a person of moderately greater than average size and strength, this is about at the limit of what I can use for arming sword technique - meaning that one can accelerate it and stop it between the classic guard positions with some effort, but without tiring or becoming unfomfortable over time. It has a very firm, solid feel to it, but its within the limits of ones expectations of a typical one-hand sword.

The 'historic' version is something more of a beast, but not in a bad way. The extra length and weight at the tip, and further out point of balance do not allow it to start and stop in the same fashion as the regular version. One can get it whistling through the air a scary speeds, but it requires a different kind of biomechanics - powering the sword from the body, shoulder, elbow, writs outwards. And then it does not want to stop until it hits something or swings on through. I can' t effectively use this with 15th century arming sword technique at proper speed, but then in theri day such swords were not meant for fencing - they were meant for offence, mainly from the back of a horse.

These are not sharpened and I have not tried to cut with them, but in his classic Sword Forum review of a 2130 similar to my 'regular' version, Gus Trim glowed about its cutting ability against a tough medium (plywood). One can tell from handling and experience that the 'historic' version would just have that extra punch to power through heavy targets even better. I doubt either would fair particularly well against light targets like water bottles, even when sharpened.

One other note, the slight difference in grips means that the 'historic version' fits snuggly into my regular size hand, allowing one to use the pommel as leverage against gravity in both grip positions. This does not work quite so well with the longer grip (unless you would have large hands than me), but then the longer grip feels more like a typical one hand sword. Its a matter of personal preference and getting used to different handle types.

In conclusion, if you are looking for a sword like this and want somewhat typical handling properties, I would go with the regular 2130. But personally, I like the 'historic' version; it looks meaner, its unforgiving, but challenging and fun to handle if one has the time to learn how to work with it. These are both 'classic' replicas that have stood the test of time with the sword collecting community, almost making them historic pieces in themselves.

A final note on the original sword of Turin, which (as discussed above) is actually a less 'classic' Xa than this replica, falling somwhere between Xa and XII. Toward the end of his carreer Oakeshott decided it was an Xa and dated it to ~1100. This is mentioned in 'Records' and in more detail in the appendix update to 'Sword in the Age of Chivalry'. I find it interesting to compare this sword to a couple of the swords in miscellanious sword appendix at the back of 'Records' that have nearly identical blades and pommels but straight guards. These he also dates to ~1100.

JD



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J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
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PostPosted: Sat 27 Nov, 2010 10:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's the fate of the sword pictured above on the left, after some customization by Eyal Azerad at Darksword Armoury. Eyal replaced the Delt Tin cross with the type 2 cross from one of their swords.

This almost brings my brazil nut stint to a close. My other Del Tin has turned into a DIY: when that's done I'll put up a group shot of the 5 swords I've decided to stick with (for now). It's been fun, and all because Tim started this thread.



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Tim Lison




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PostPosted: Sat 27 Nov, 2010 12:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

JD-

Glad I could help! I really like the brazil nut with the type 2 cross. Arma Bohemia had one with a type 2 cross on their "available" page not too long ago and I was very tempted. I have another brazil nut in the works at the moment which will get it's own thread when it's done and will show up here too! Your stint is at a close...? Does this mean you want to sell me your custom A&A.... Wink
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J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
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PostPosted: Sat 27 Nov, 2010 2:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tim Lison wrote:
Does this mean you want to sell me your custom A&A.... Wink


Heh, heh...no, I'm not getting rid of any of these guys just yet, especially not that one, but there are other great types to pursue...

Regards, JD
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Ben van Koert




Location: Veenendaal, the Netherlands
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PostPosted: Sun 28 Nov, 2010 3:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This week my first brazil nut sword arrived. I ordered it for a special norman Hastings side project I have going on. It was supplied by Arma Bohemia, which happened to have this beauty in stock. I've wanted a good brazil nut sword for quite a while, so I'm pretty chuffed with this one.
It's a lovely sword, 1.1 kg and it handles very well.



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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Sun 28 Nov, 2010 6:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice Ben, welcome to the club. Is that Pavel Moc's Hasting's sword?

I finished my other Del Tin project yesterday. Decided to put a wire grip on it (after re-doing the blade and hilt furniture).



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Tim Lison




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PostPosted: Sun 28 Nov, 2010 8:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice one Ben! I saw that on the Arma Bohemia site and was tempted by it! Good pick up! Congratulations.
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Maurizio D'Angelo




Location: Italy
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PostPosted: Sun 28 Nov, 2010 3:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:

A final note on the original sword of Turin, which (as discussed above) is actually a less 'classic' Xa than this replica, falling somwhere between Xa and XII. Toward the end of his carreer Oakeshott decided it was an Xa and dated it to ~1100. This is mentioned in 'Records' and in more detail in the appendix update to 'Sword in the Age of Chivalry'. I find it interesting to compare this sword to a couple of the swords in miscellanious sword appendix at the back of 'Records' that have nearly identical blades and pommels but straight guards. These he also dates to ~1100.

JD


In fact, it is strange to have a guard type 6, on blade Xa. I do not think very common.
Most popular on a blade XII, we have some examples, so it is classified, I do not know what this classification is right.
The shorter fuller and more tapered tip are not always easily recognizable between two type.

Ciao
Maurizio
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Thu 02 Dec, 2010 10:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

OK Tim, here's the BN collection. The result of two years of fun with this thread:


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Mirek Macek




Location: Czech republic
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PostPosted: Mon 17 Oct, 2011 7:59 am    Post subject: customised Lutel-Handicraft 12013         Reply with quote

On the request of J.D. Crawford.


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Tim Lison




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PostPosted: Mon 17 Oct, 2011 8:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice one Mirek! Who made it? Looks like Lutel... I like the brazil nut with downturned cross.
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William Swiger




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PostPosted: Mon 17 Oct, 2011 9:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just a quick question to anyone who has the newer A&A Maurice Sword - How does it handle? Was considering ordering one with a longer grip based on a couple of short reviews I read. If it handles well as is - will just get the standard version.
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G K Vaughn




Location: Australia
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PostPosted: Mon 17 Oct, 2011 9:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tim Lison wrote:
Nice one Mirek! Who made it? Looks like Lutel... I like the brazil nut with downturned cross.


Looks to me like Baltimore Knife & Sword, they're fond of that style of leather grip.

"The rifle is no more than the grip of the bayonet."

--Giuseppe Garibaldi
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Mirek Macek




Location: Czech republic
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PostPosted: Mon 17 Oct, 2011 10:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tim Lison wrote:
Nice one Mirek! Who made it? Looks like Lutel... I like the brazil nut with downturned cross.


You are right Tim, it's slightly customised Lutel-Handicraft 12013.
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