[Richard Chapman]

I ask the question because of several recent threads about how one should always look
at the tang before buying a sword, accounts of swords breakage at the tang, etc. Why are they made
that way? I am not an expert in Japanese swords either, but they seem to _never_ break
at the tang, and you can see why -- the tang is so beefy. I can't imagine that cost is the
reason for narrow tangs, so why?

I searched for a while and didn't find this discussed, but I do apologize if this is something
that is regularly discussed that I have missed.

-Richard

[Timothy Gulics]

Well, from my experience...

Japanese swords often had a tang that did not run the entire length of the handle, but instead 3/4 of the way. It also did not 'fill' the handle like today's more modern "full tang" knives or swords (which have a thick tang with two wood or plastic scales pinned to either side). The wide tang on a Japanese sword is also a result of the overall blade thickness - katana blades are fairly narrow compared to, oh, a western broadsword.

Western tangs need to be more narrow than the blade so that you can fit your hand around them (and they handle they are contained within). However, the tang should not be extremely skinny, as they are in many cheap/wallhanger swords out there. That is simply an example of a company trying to cut production costs.

Here is a good example of a nice tang:



That's the Albion Next Generation Gaddhjalt, a "viking" sword.

[James Nordstrom]

Others will undoubtedly go into much deeper thoughts than I, but the basic reason why modern replicas of western swords have narrow tangs is because the makers are cheep.

Albion, A&A, Lutel and many other custom and higher end manufacturers make their blades with nice beefy tangs.

As well, historically western swords have nice beefy tangs as well.

[Björn Hellqvist]

Isn't this tang beefy enough?



Western tangs were of varying width (and thickness), depending on blade style.

[Alexi Goranov]

Hi Richard,

The tiny tang is a modern production issue rather than an inherent design problem. For whatever reason (cost most probably, or a genuine lack of knowledge) some modern manufacturers (Valiant armoury for example) make very insecure tangs, either too narrow, or welded in the middle. From what I have seen and heard, period weapons had a tang width of ~1/2 to 1/3 the width of the blade. That is also how respectable companies make their swords. I have included a picture of an Albion sword tang. If you were to visit their website or go to the Albion Next Gen thread you will see may more such pictures representing different models. The same holds true for A&A (USA) and ATrim swords. It does seem that the tang of medieval european swords is not as wide as that of katanas, but history has shown that it does not need to be so large to give you a solid piece.

The reason why checking the tang before purchasing a sword is important is because most of the swords (if you can call them that) that are being sold on the web do not come from the respectable makers, and the tangs are very often pensil thin. I have been a victim of "rat-tail" tang design, but considering the maker and the price I paid that was to be expected.

Cheers,

Alexi

[Allen W]

Photos I've seen of original European sword tangs vary widely. Most viking era pieces I've seen had consistently wide parallel tangs that were often thicker in cross section than the blade. I've seen tangs on war swords and high medieval swords that were similar but I have also seen tangs on some of these swords as well as some two-handed claymores that were nearly rat tails. These latter, though, usually started at the shoulder with widths approaching a third of that of the blade. This re-enforces the need of a tight fitting hilt to distribute stress evenly throughout grip and tang. If I remember correctly the tang on the Edward III sword (X-rayed in Records of the Medieval Sword) and Oakeshott's swiss hand and a half ( shown in the same work disassembled) fall in between these two extremes.

[Thomas McDonald]

[Joe Fults]

Most of the modern problems result from cheap threaded screw parts being welded to the blade, often near the shoulder where much of the stree builds up in use.

[Thomas McDonald]

Donnie S. had posted this pic of a few of his antique baskethilt tangs ( the two middle ones look like they've been repaired, or re-welded, ? ) .



Mac

[Andrew Winston]

After looking at Mac's pictures, I guess my question would be are "beefy" tangs really necessary? Many, many weapons have really small, flimsy spike-like tangs attached with resin (e.g. tulwar and dha), and Chinese tangs have never impressed me with their robustness.

Dha (courtesy of Mark Bowditch):
http://members.cox.net/bowditchm/dha1a.jpg

Jian:
http://img3.photobucket.com/albums/v12/cha-con/021.jpg


Dao:
http://img3.photobucket.com/albums/v12/cha-con/1_990_11.jpg

[Alexi Goranov]

[Allen W]

[ Many, many weapons have really small, flimsy spike-like tangs attached with resin (e.g. tulwar and dha), and Chinese tangs have never impressed me with their robustness.

I have never heard of a tang attached to the blade with resin. The examples you site are typically integral blade/tangs attached to the hilt with resin.

[Timothy Gulics]

Ewww... those ugly tangs are terrible. I've seen wallhangers with better, cleaner tangs.

Conversely, if you look at the tang on the Albion Baron, it is THICK and juicy. Like a good steak. Mmm... swordsteak...

I might have to reconsider saving up for a Next Gen. But which one?!

[Ryan A. C.]

[Walt Ligon]

[John Gage]

I have had the pleasure or displeasure i should say to have repaired a handful of not so cheap "battle ready" swords for some local collectors. I wont say which swords they were but they were imports from the Phillipines and India. After dissassembling these swords i found the tangs to be very wimpy even on the claymores. Also (i was amazed by this) the blade, hilt and pommel had control numbers on them. These are supposed to be used to identify which parts fit which blade tightly which they didnt. The handle, hilt and pommel were loaded with epoxy to take up any of the slop when it cures. So why did they use control #s? I m completely baffled. So after removing all of the epoxy i made tiny steel shims to fit into all the gaps which when the pommel compressed everything again seemed to work quite well. I personally will never buy one of these import swords for safety concerns. They look pretty nice but they are very shabby in their construction.

Just my 2 cents

John

[Nathan Cole]

[Andrew Winston]

[Allen W]

Andrew none of the swords you illustrate are very narrow near the shoulder where I would expect most stress to occur as blade flexion ceases at this point. However these tangs lack the edge bevel of the blade and thus represent more steel in relation to width when measured against the blade. I think the main relevance of tang length is how its terminus effects pivot and leverage of the blade against the hilt with longer generally being better.

[Andrew Winston]