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Niels Just Rasmussen
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 Posted: Fri 18 Mar, 2016 11:03 am Post subject: |
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A bit unrelated to weapons, but a hugely important archaeological find was unearthed at Aunslev on Funen in Denmark.
It is a golden crucifix with a very "Norse" Christ depicted.
So it is dated 900-950 AD (predates the Jelling dynasty and its art form) and is the oldest Christ depiction found in Denmark. The golden crucifix is 4 cm tall & 3,5 cm wide and weighing 14 grams.
One other crucifix of this type was found at Birka, Sweden in 1879 - so they are very rare.
What is for me very interesting is the almost "smiling" face and the big arm rings and leg rings - so does the rings indicate Christ's heroic warrior status in Scandinavia at the time OR was he fastened to the cross with rings rather than nails to the hands in this depiction?
As Odin was hung on a tree (Yggdrasil) as a part of an initiation ritual to learn the runes (secrets), the Christ figure could be influenced by local Odin beliefs??
Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europ...36301.html
The Birka crucifix is gilded silver and the smallest of the three:
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Source: http://www.museum-sonderjylland.dk/BILLEDERNE...ting-3.jpg
PS: A fragment of this type has earlier been found in Denmark, at Ketting in Southern Jutland in a female grave (which also had 3 possible Thor-hammers). This examples could be the biggest of the three, but is of non-gilded silver.
Source: http://www.museum-sonderjylland.dk/siderne/Mu...uxA5GQrLgE
All three seems very much alike and perhaps from the same craftsman/workshop??
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Pieter B.
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| Posted: Fri 18 Mar, 2016 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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That's a rather nice looking piece of work, I reckon it takes a keen eye and a steady hand to make such an artifact.
Is there anything outside the bindings (instead of nails) that make you think it's a fusion between the heroic warrior god and the Christian savoir? I admit that highschool is probably not the most reliable source of information but a history teacher of mine said Christs shared traits with Balder/Baldr is what made him rather popular and accepted.
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Roger Hooper
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Niels Just Rasmussen
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| Posted: Fri 18 Mar, 2016 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Pieter B. wrote: | That's a rather nice looking piece of work, I reckon it takes a keen eye and a steady hand to make such an artifact.
Is there anything outside the bindings (instead of nails) that make you think it's a fusion between the heroic warrior god and the Christian savoir? I admit that highschool is probably not the most reliable source of information but a history teacher of mine said Christs shared traits with Balder/Baldr is what made him rather popular and accepted. |
In the transition period it seems that the Norse "White Christ" was seen as a "heroic warrior king" hanging on the cross laughing/smiling (like a true viking would laugh in the face of death and recite poetry made for the moment as Ragner Lodbrog does in the snake pit when tossed there by King Ella). So Christ is at this point more like an old Testament kind of King with a viking demeanor.
Odin hung on the world tree and Christ hung on a cross -> probably not a coincidence that Christianity seemed to be a top down affair in Scandinavia. The ruling class exchanged Odin for Christ - one of the first Danish bishops even have the composite name Odinkar (= "easily furious"; as "Odin" means "fury") so clearly from an Odin-family.
Why they did so: Very possibly to get divine right to Rule and no longer had to be appointed locally by the people at the Ting!
Christ as suffering "weakling" in pain and humiliated covered in wounds and blood seems to be a 1200-1300's development. Early Scandinavian crucifixes shows a Heroic King on the cross without any "defects"!
Balder is dead and is in Hel, so what is really the point of having friendship with this As? He can't help you with anything (being dead), but he will escape Hel after Ragnarok. So he is clearly more a Post-Ragnarok As. The hope for a new age after Ragnarok.
Its in a way very realistic for the world they lived in (an Iron Age - the fall of the cosmic year - with the great winter and Ragnarok looming in the future). The beautiful peaceful As of justice and light is dead -> that pretty well sums up reality. With Odin you have rage, military tactics, diplomatic trickery, poetry and secret knowledge (power) - all what a heroic ruler and warrior needs to succeed to win eternal fame. Odin is clearly not popular among the non-elites.
Anyways the Danish Balder myth described by Saxo is very much different from the Icelandic: Here Balder is the bad guy and Høder the hero (name means Battle/Warrior) and Høder kills Balder with a sword called Mistelten ("ten" is a sharp tip and Mistel probably a lost word cognate with English Mist or actually loaned from Anglo-Saxon?), so the sword is the "Mist-tip" -> a kenning which could be interpreted as "the sword that send you to Niflhel -> Nifel cognate with German Nebel which means Mist/fog.
Saxo probably got the meaning of the name right (being a kenning and good name for a deadly sword) and Snorri got it wrong thinking it was a plant (which by the way doesn't even grow in Iceland and its quite rare in Denmark). Furthermore Snorri thinks that the "Misteltein" grows from the Earth (which it doesn't).
Saxo also writes his history around 20 years before Snorri.
So what Icelandic people thought of Balder is not relevant at all for Denmark or Sweden.
In actually you have a religion that is still evolving so huge variations over time and place. Saxo and Snorri were both Christian, so they created a "fixed" pantheon where likely none ever existed.
Ti(r) (Icelandic Tyr with typical west-nordic r-mutation) was based on place names apparently the leading God in Denmark before Odin took over (possibly the Skjoldunge dynasty at Lejre from 550 AD - with the hall as described in Beowulf as Heorot, Danish Hjort = Deer). Odin names are not many but seems to be tied to centers of power. He was only the God of the ruling class.
Odin names are most prevalent in Sweden and also found in Denmark and Norway, but interestingly enough is totally lacking in Western Norway!
Denmark has only 1 place name after Frø (icelandic Frey) and that is Frøs Herred in Northern Jutland, which is not an original core Danish territory. The core Danish areas Sjælland and Skåne has 0 Frey names!
Basically for Danes: Friendship with Frø meant you were Swedish.
Outside Denmark you only have 1 secure Tyr name from Southern Norway and 0 from Sweden.
Basically for Norwegian and Swedish: If you have Ti(r)/Tyr friendship you must be Danish.
Swedish place names points to Yngve Frö (icelandic Yngvi Frey) and Ull as very dominant. Frö (icelandic Frey) is clearly a Swedish As.
Secure Frey names are rare in Norway, but they do occur and we have Hrafnkel Freysgoði in Iceland with his own saga.
Ull is very prominent in two locations: Around Lake Mälaren in Central Sweden and in the Oslo area of Southern Norway, but here under the different name Ullinn.
Ull/Ullinn is no-where to be found in the Norwegian Trøndelag (Trondheim area) or the old Danish core territories.
Norway seems from the sagas to be very Thor orientated (whereas you have 0 Odin names on Iceland; because you had 0 noble families), but you have areas of Western Norway with no place names of either Odin, Thor or Frey!
Thor was clearly popular in the late Viking Age, probably opposed to Odin -> Christ aristocrats. Seems those with friendship with Thor was the majority of those settling on Iceland being freemen and lesser local nobles resisting the new nation building of Norwegian Kings first likely being Odin-men and later certainly Christ-men.
Thor place names are especially prevalent in central Sweden and seems from the composite names to be an agricultural God tied to fields (Torsåker = Thor's acre and you have a Torsager from Denmark; meaning the same), so very different from the As described in the Icelandic materials.
You have some "non-secure" Balder names from Denmark and Norway, but clearly none from Sweden.
Yet you do have 1 fairly secure place name of Balder's son Forseti in Norway!
A Scandinavian "pantheon" seems to be a Christian fantasy. People had friendship with different gods at different times and at different places, but you probably had loyalty to one As, possibly inherited within your family.
You had cultic festivals, but only Jul (Yule) seemed to be truly pan-Scandinavian and which Aesir who was called upon here could likely also vary with time and place.
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Pieter B.
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| Posted: Sat 19 Mar, 2016 7:06 am Post subject: |
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Well Niels an excellent reply as always,
You have quite an ability to put enormous amounts of new information in your posts and succeed at shattering and previous held idea's. The fact that most of the mythology was indeed written by a 12th or 13th century Icelandic Christian is something I tend to forget from time to time 
I actually tried to find place names here that are in some way linked to anyone of those gods to see if there is or was a clear preference here. Problem being that the root thor is used in the word thorp and places named after brambles or thorny bushes. The exceptions being Torhout in west Flanders. Odin derived names are only found three times in the region of which two are still contested.
Some other names that stood out were Adrup - Alathorpe, Alem - Aleym or Aleheim, Elst - Heliste which is possibly alhistja, Usselo - possible ansu-lo or referring to a personal name Oso.
Seems the Church did a pretty good job renaming certain places, or the natives were rather down to earth people.
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Niels Just Rasmussen
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| Posted: Sat 19 Mar, 2016 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| Pieter B. wrote: | Well Niels an excellent reply as always,
You have quite an ability to put enormous amounts of new information in your posts and succeed at shattering and previous held idea's. The fact that most of the mythology was indeed written by a 12th or 13th century Icelandic Christian is something I tend to forget from time to time
I actually tried to find place names here that are in some way linked to anyone of those gods to see if there is or was a clear preference here. Problem being that the root thor is used in the word thorp and places named after brambles or thorny bushes. The exceptions being Torhout in west Flanders. Odin derived names are only found three times in the region of which two are still contested.
Some other names that stood out were Adrup - Alathorpe, Alem - Aleym or Aleheim, Elst - Heliste which is possibly alhistja, Usselo - possible ansu-lo or referring to a personal name Oso.
Seems the Church did a pretty good job renaming certain places, or the natives were rather down to earth people. |
Actually it something that most people often forget. Snorri was Christian and a very skilled politician. So when his writings are still taken at face value it just shows his rhetorical craftsmanship. What he shows us is what a Christian antiquarian wants to show his readers.
Snorri was from one of the leading Icelandic families (the Sturlungar clan) and took part in politics and was Lawspeaker in Iceland in 1215 (which meant that he had learned the entire Icelandic law and had to recite a 1/3 of it each year orally from memory). In 1218 he sailed by royal invitation to Norway and then later met the Swedish Lawspeaker in 1219. Returning to Iceland in 1220 he was Lawspeaker again from 1222-1232.
It seems that the leading Icelandic families with time acquired a "monopoly" on being court poets (Skjald) for the Scandinavian royalties and leading noble families. They travelled around a lot from court to court and so learned stories, legends and history from all over Scandinavia. That mass of lore could then eventually be compiled. The point is that Snorri created a "Synchronic mythology" based in this Icelandic speciality.
In Danish the -thorp suffix denotes a "secondary village". (Danish: Udflytter-landsby -> Litt. Out-moving-village). It was generally the more poor that moved away from the primary village to build a farm, but in the area still owned by the village.
The -thorp was often prefixed with a name the guy leading the out-moving. So that prefix would never be the name of a God.
With time this suffix evolved into many variants just within the Danish territory.
In the Danelaw: -thorpe
In Jutland and the Danish islands:
A) After consonant: -trup, -drup, -torp (rare).
B) After vowel: -rup (On Fynen -ndrup.)
In Skåne:
A) After consonant: -torp.
B) After vowel: -rup, -rp
In Germany -> dorf
In the Netherlands -> -dorp
NB: Today dorf/dorp have changed meaning and means a village, not an out-moving!
Also these CAN'T be combined to names of Aesir, but instead are prefixed with personal names of common people or other features as first element (natural or cultural).
People couldn't have names just like the Aesir, but they could have names in which a gods name was part of a composite.
In Denmark one named originally caused trouble, but has proven to be fairly consistently tied to village suffixes:
Modern Danish personal name "Tore" is derived from Old Danish Thorir which is a short form of the full Proto-Norse name Þunra-wíhaR ("Thor-sacrificer").
I live close to a town called Toresby: As the -by suffix denoted village in the viking age, then this village is named after a guy called Tore. "Tore's By". So clearly nothing to do with the Thor, though -by suffix is viking age.
Place names have generally always the God-name as the first part in the composite name and the second part can't be a settlement, but a sacred place of some sort.
Here is how it works with some Danish examples.
Tissø - Ti(r)'s Sø = Lake of Ti(r).
Torslunde = Thor's groves
Odense - Oden's Ve = Oden's holy place/sanctuary. [Odin is Oden in modern Swedish, while Danes now use the Icelandic name].
Nærum (in 1193 Niarth-ar-um, which shows -ar genitive instead of -s genitive, -um < -heim in Denmark) = Niarth's home.
Niarth seems to be the Old Danish form of what is Njörðr in Old Icelandic. So one does actually find Njord names on Sjælland, but no secure Frey names!
Tacitus describes a Goddess on a Island called Nerthus. The Icelandic Vanir is male, but you can't rule out whether the Danish Niarth actually is female?!
I have found on wikipedia 3 dutch place names with Odin:
1) Woens-drecht (Woens is /Voens/). Probably the name is originally Woens and then -drecht was possibly added later, when a canal was constructed in the area? (w- changed to /v-/ and v- changed to /f-/)
In Denmark you actually have some very close equivalents:
Vojens (Iron Age old Danish name before w- was lost before back-vowels in North Germanic, which happened 700-800 AD, so it then only changed from W->V indicating that the place name is older than the sound change.)
Oens (totally the same as the dutch Woens, but where initial W- was lost before a back-vowel)
Both these names are from Oden's Ve (like former mentioned Odense and the Swedish Odensvi). As can be seen Woens is already composite -> that's why I think the -drecht was added later.
2) Woensel
I see that the normal interpretation is Woen-sel(e/i) ("sal" is the Nordic equivalent to English "hall") = Odin-hall as in Old Saxon it was -seli and in Anglo-Saxon -sele.
There is an equivalent Odensala in Sweden, though it's name was actually first written in 1286 as Othinsharg -> Oden's harg.
Harg is clearly a ritualistic spot - a natural stone alter - a place of cult. Cognates are Old Icelandic hörgr and Anglo-saxon hearg.
Though I agree that is seems most likely I'm speculating that this could also be equivalent to the three Danish place names Vonsild, Onsild, Vognsild (the first and third with old v- preserved, the second not)?!
-ild suffix is from Old Danish -hyllæ (probably a wooden construction dedicated to the God, a "temple")
(V)o(g)n-s-ild = Odin's "God-house".
So Woen-s-el certainly sound phonetically similar...... (the -d is silent in the Danish version and probably was orthographically placed there to indicate the effect of colouring the "i" towards an /e/ sound).
3) Wanswert.
So probably from Wodan-s-wierde = Odin's Mound.
I don't seem to remember any Odin's names ending in -høj in Danish (Høj = barrowmound), but there are the Danish Onsberg & Onsbjerg (Odin's hill) and a Swedish Odensberg.
Bjerg (berg) means hill, though in Modern Danish Bjerg has come to mean mountain, but that was originally called fjeld instead].
PS: There actually is a Danish Onshøj. So also a Danish equivalent for this example.
Sweden has more of such composite place names compared to Denmark and Norway (though they both also have quite a lot compared with non-Scandinavian countries). It is clearly because Sweden became Christians last. So no wonder that the Netherlands has even fewer as the Church often renamed sites. Only if the locals kept calling places the old names did they survive.
Lithuania should thus in theory have tons of place names after Baltic Gods as they were the last Europeans to be converted.
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Pieter B.
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| Posted: Sat 19 Mar, 2016 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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I old texts Woensel is called - Gunsela, Gunsella, Wonsele or Wnsela which is why some contest it was every a sacred or holy place but rather a place named after a person.
The Drecht in Woensdrecht can mean a lot of things but in older texts it tends to mean undeep place/water or place where a river or lake can be forded.
There are plenty of towns and villages whose name has with ancient origins but they all refer to rather mundane landscape features. Things like "Eastern forest swamp" "Middle forest swamp" "High forest swamp" and "Town located in swampy estuary" etc etc and of course Christian names indicating a certain abbot founded a village (or changed the name to his own)
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Niels Just Rasmussen
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| Posted: Sun 20 Mar, 2016 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| Pieter B. wrote: | In old texts Woensel is called - Gunsela, Gunsella, Wonsele or Wnsela which is why some contest it was every a sacred or holy place but rather a place named after a person.
The Drecht in Woensdrecht can mean a lot of things but in older texts it tends to mean undeep place/water or place where a river or lake can be forded.
There are plenty of towns and villages whose name has with ancient origins but they all refer to rather mundane landscape features. Things like "Eastern forest swamp" "Middle forest swamp" "High forest swamp" and "Town located in swampy estuary" etc etc and of course Christian names indicating a certain abbot founded a village (or changed the name to his own) |
If the old texts shows a different variant like Gunsela or Unsela (and not a clear Odin prefix), then it's likely a personal name as the suffix before -sala. So the name of the original hall-owner.
Thanks for the drecht explanation. So a "ford" (crossable water-area) could be a good explanation and then be used later as a constructed canal or drain.
As the Frisians were the marsh-dwellers per excellence it is perhaps not surprising their local landscape shows a lot of these place names. A problem for the coastal areas of the Netherlands is that they are constantly changing and many pre-christian areas could have been abandoned and flooded through the decades (big floods in the 1300's and again 1600-1700's hundreds hit south-western Denmark very hard for instance), so that local names were not preserved.
So perhaps very few really old settlements in these areas?
Contrary some Danish villages that can be traced back to 200 AD archaeologically (Vorbasse the most famous studied archaeologically).
The new Golden cross was found at Aunslev.
The -lev suffix is one of the old suffix's and can be traced to around the Germanic Iron Age.
Is means something "left", very likely in the meaning of what he left as an inheritance. The first part is personal names of the person handed this territory.
I think it is very likely that when the Skjoldunge Dynasty took power in Denmark around 550 AD the King of Lejre awarded lands to his followers around the vastly expanded westward Danish territory.
Aun is in fact still used as a personal name in Scandinavia (though it is very rare), but the meaning of the name is somewhat unclear. Aun could be a short form of the composite name Auð-vin, where Auðr in Old Icelandic mean prosperity/fortune, but poetically and perhaps with even older meaning fate/destiny. -vin is friend (Modern Danish ven).
So "fate/destiny-friend" (or "prosperity/fortune-friend").
So Aun-s-lev: Litt: "Aun's leavings".
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 22 Mar, 2016 10:33 am Post subject: Ancient Battle discovered |
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First off I need to thank Niels for the great posts and discussion above. Really interesting stuff. I almost hate to take the thread in a different direction. 
Here is a find in a book rather than the earth, with the advancements in teasing info from old manuscripts they have found a description of a second battle on the pass of Thermopylae. The Goths where turned back in the year 250 AD by the Roman Empire. Very cool.
Greeks vs Goths
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Niels Just Rasmussen
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| Posted: Wed 23 Mar, 2016 8:47 am Post subject: Re: Ancient Battle discovered |
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| Craig Johnson wrote: | First off I need to thank Niels for the great posts and discussion above. Really interesting stuff. I almost hate to take the thread in a different direction.
Here is a find in a book rather than the earth, with the advancements in teasing info from old manuscripts they have found a description of a second battle on the pass of Thermopylae. The Goths where turned back in the year 250 AD by the Roman Empire. Very cool.
Greeks vs Goths |
Your are welcome - happy that you found it interesting.
Place name research really points out that "the common view" of Norse religion likely is false. Snorri was likely influenced by a Christian understanding of "pagan polytheism" based on the Graeco-Roman religion of Imperial Rome, and while he knew a lot about Norse myths he was after all a medieval Christian and thinking like one.
That Graeco-Roman religion was in itself very different from its Indo-European origins. Each time a people was conquered their God(s) was incorporated into the "bigger whole" and also underwent an "interpretatio graeca/romana".
Each group of people probably had their own primary god, so "the pantheon" is perhaps an artificial construction created by Empire-building (or minor groups merging into major groups).
"Monolatri" (you have your god, but accepts others people's gods as real as well) could evolved into "polytheism" with contacts, conquest and movement of people.
The Jews (and Christians) went the other way. Started having Monolatri, but ended up being Monotheistic as they didn't accept any other gods than their own being really gods.
In theory an Odin-follower could have renounced other gods than Odin as being false and become Monotheistic - it was just that the Jewish/Christian response was very unusual. It is clear from some Icelandic texts that Odin followers likely looked down on Thor followers, calling him a god for Thralls (that is really an insult that in a honour society calls for revenge!).
Otherwise this palimpsest find is really important.
As far as I remember this episode is the first time the Goths becomes known in the Roman World.
So they had moved down into the Balkans from the Vistula area around the Baltic around this point (250 AD).
They are still being pagan and conducting raids to win fame/honour and to supply their followers with gifts.
Only later (370's AD) with the pressure from the Huns we see Goths as a whole population trying to enter the Roman Empire for safety that lead to the famous (H)Adrianopolis battle in 378 AD, where Emperor Valens died on the battlefield.
The Gothic immigrants seems to have nominally accepted Christianity (at least lip-service) when they were admitted into the Empire. As Emperor Valens was Arian Christian, then it seems to be the reason why the Goths became Arian Christian.
So interestingly enough when the Goths killed Valens on the battlefield, Valens was followed by Orthodox Emperors, but the Goths kept to their oath and their Arian Christianity in spite of the politico-religious changes in Constantinople.
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 25 Mar, 2016 11:50 am Post subject: Bronze Age Battle at Tollense dated to 1250 B.C.E |
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A really good article about a battle they are dating to 1250 B.C.E. Exceptional detail and recovered items. The dig has been going on since the 90's but I am not sure if I had heard of it prior to this and definitely not seen any of the artifacts. Very interesting stuff.
Full article and pics
Science Mag's Podcast story
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Pieter B.
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| Posted: Sat 26 Mar, 2016 4:05 am Post subject: Re: Bronze Age Battle at Tollense dated to 1250 B.C.E |
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Niels I recently watched the first episode of Kenneth Clark's civilization and he raises a point about the Crucifixion, namely that is was relatively uncommon in pre 10th century Europe. Do you know if that is the case, did contemporary Frankish and Saxons wear jewelry of the Crucifixion? If not then could the Odin theory explain why the Scandinavians adopted it earlier than the rest? Just some food for thought.
https://youtu.be/MpPNbI6GcxI?t=2497
| Craig Johnson wrote: | A really good article about a battle they are dating to 1250 B.C.E. Exceptional detail and recovered items. The dig has been going on since the 90's but I am not sure if I had heard of it prior to this and definitely not seen any of the artifacts. Very interesting stuff.
Full article and pics
Science Mag's Podcast story |
Good stuff, I had seen the baseball bat before but the last time I read about this they were talking about a 100 maybe 200 man total, not a couple of thousand. Shame really that battles like this were written down in Greece, Egypt and the Middle East with no surviving finds yet here we have a battlefield without written word to tell us what, who or why.
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Niels Just Rasmussen
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| Posted: Mon 28 Mar, 2016 6:41 am Post subject: Re: Bronze Age Battle at Tollense dated to 1250 B.C.E |
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| Craig Johnson wrote: | A really good article about a battle they are dating to 1250 B.C.E. Exceptional detail and recovered items. The dig has been going on since the 90's but I am not sure if I had heard of it prior to this and definitely not seen any of the artifacts. Very interesting stuff.
Full article and pics
Science Mag's Podcast story |
Thanks by heads-up for this really interesting discovery!
I think people have a tendency to equate literacy with civilization and organization, so thinking if people have no writing they wouldn't have any organization.
This old-school thinking clearly has to be abandoned. Indo-Iranian warriors managed to tame horses and invent chariots and totally militarily overwhelm some middle eastern civilizations. This shows that an high decree of military organization and stratified society was in place in Germany at ~1250 BC to make this battle possibly in a thinly populated territory, but does that really come as a surprise of one knows about the Indo-European history and over what vast distances people and prestige goods moved and upheld guest-friendship?
The Mitanni people was Hurrian, but must have been taken over by Indian warriors (perhaps originally mercenaries staging a coup?) as we can see from a treaty between the Hittite king Suppiluliuma and the Mitanni attiwaza in ~1380 BC. We also have the horse training text of Kikkuli from ~1400 BC. Kikkuli was the master horse trainer of the Mitanni, but wrote his work in Hittite.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_superstrate_in_Mitanni
& https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitanni
Suppiluliuma I was king of the Hittites (also an indo-european people) and his name means "(ritually) pure-spring".
attiwaza was King of the Mitanni and brother of another king of the Mitanni - Tushratta (in sanskrit Tvesa-ratha, "his chariot charges" which is clearly a perfect indo-iranian name for its time).
In this treaty Mitanni gods are mentioned: [the treaty is written in cuneiform]:
a-ru-na, ú-ru-wa-na = Vedic Sanskrit Varuna.
mi-it-ra = Mitra
in-tar, in-da-ra = Indra
na-a-ti-ya-an-na = Nāsatya (the Asvins)
So AFTER conquering taking over "civilized cultures", they also started learning to read and write. At this period they had the military edge, which caused all the great "civilized" states to copy them if they wanted to keep up -> Egyptians for instance also created their own chariot units probably importing indo-european mercenaries at first as this chariot know-how is very specialized and sophisticated (likely what the Mitanni had done, but the Egyptians avoided being coup'ed).
The Egyptian chariots clashed with the Hittite chariots at Kadesh in 1274 BC, which ended in a draw.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kadesh
So the battle at Tollense ~1250 BC is around the same time as this. Different organized groups are clearly fighting hard for control of this 500 year old bridge.
The indo-european people had a general aversion about writing religious things down as they thought that people wouldn't misunderstand the "power of the word" (the actual sound and rhythm) if it appeared in writing (and they are probably right about that). In India the Rigveda probably started to be written down around 1000 BC (?), but among the Celtic Druids it never happened even though classical authors stated the Druids knew how to read and write Greek! We don't have any Germanic texts on religion written by Scandinavians either, before the change to Christianity.
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Niels Just Rasmussen
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| Posted: Mon 28 Mar, 2016 7:52 am Post subject: Re: Bronze Age Battle at Tollense dated to 1250 B.C.E |
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| Pieter B. wrote: | Niels I recently watched the first episode of Kenneth Clark's civilization and he raises a point about the Crucifixion, namely that is was relatively uncommon in pre 10th century Europe. Do you know if that is the case, did contemporary Frankish and Saxons wear jewelry of the Crucifixion? If not then could the Odin theory explain why the Scandinavians adopted it earlier than the rest? Just some food for thought.
https://youtu.be/MpPNbI6GcxI?t=2497
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The crucifixion was a real head-ache for the early Christians in the Roman world as it was a punishment for people rebelling against the Roman Empire. [That's why its possible one of the few things we can be fairly positive about is true for the "historical Jesus" as it is not an apologetic, but a huge problem in converting graeco-roman people].
So everything was done to tone this aspect down during mission, explaining why it is basically non-existent in the early church. Is would be like having a saviour, who was executed for being a terrorist today.
The pagan Scandinavians didn't invent the Crucifixion, but they might have been a catalysator for using this image in Christianity as Odin had heroically hung on the world-tree to learn to runes.
Taking that idea the crucifixion of Christ probably was seen as heroic - if he was a really manly King that hung there smiling and laughing! Then afterwards he also overcomes death (probably Odin could have done the same?).
Odin hanging on the world tree is interesting as it seems to be a kind of initiation ritual into the Odinic cult.
Perhaps vikings of these noble lines actually went through this initiation as Odin has done and thus afterwards were taught the secrets of the Runes. It seems likely that Odinic warriors also saw themselves as "already dead" or had "overcome death" through this and perhaps other rituals thus having nothing to fear on the battlefield -> Those initiated would be picked up by the Valkyries and fight and drink in Valhalla with Odin himself until Ragnarok and the final battle. [It is important to remember that it was Odin-friends of the right noble families that went to Valhalla, it was not for everyone that fought on the battlefield].
In later folk mythology "the wild hunt" is clearly Odin and his undead followers that sweeps across the landscape picking up unfortunates on the way, that are forced to forever ride with them.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Hunt
Odin is a necromantic God and so can Christ be seen as you need necromantic/shamanistic powers to travel to the land of the dead and return!
Another factor worth mentioning is the cross in itself (without Jesus hanging on it).
The cross was used to "cross yourself" against evil.
Without knowing precisely when it was first wildly used on the classical world, it is interesting that Thor's hammer sign was confusingly similar to this crossing yourself.
Thor was the god who could "vie" (sanctify). It was done by making the "hammer sign" which seems have been in the shape of a cross/plus-sign.
In Denmark a marriage is in fact still called a "Vielse". A Thor's hammer was placed on the womb of the bride (probably after making the hammer sign?), to protect the womb from chaotic forces.
When Thor's belly is stolen by Thrym he demands to be married to Freya. Thor and Loke must dress up as females to travel to Thrym and convince him that Thor in disguise is actually Freya. It succeed because of Loke and then Thrym takes out the hammer and puts it in Thor's womb as the bridal gift! Then Thor's takes the hammer and kills Thrym. So this story also tells about the bridal ritual and how Thors hammer was used.
Pregnant women probably bore a Thor's hammer as an amulet at least on the late part of the Viking age.
So crucifixion fits well with Odin beliefs.
Crossing yourself is just like using the hammer sign of Thor for protection against evil/chaotic influences. The "hammer sign" probably goes back to an original protective sun-cross in the bronze age.
The first Christian actually has the missionary idea of converting people gradually as they had basically no success on converting outside the cities (pagani = peasants). Let them think what they want at first and then we can perhaps influence them slowly towards the real truth. This was described by the letters between Augustine of Canterbury and Pope Gregor I.
This changed with Charlemagne who clearly spread Christianity by the sword (especially against the Saxons, where it was convert or die).
What is interesting is how much "Germanic Thinking" was in Frankish and Anglo-Saxon Christianity at different times.
They also had a pagan background and possibly also a long transition period. The Christianity of Charlemagne and his Frankish empire is not the same as the late Imperial Roman Christianity.
I don't have any knowledge of Frankish/Saxon people wearing crosses as jewelry, but it would be very interesting if they didn't!
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Pieter B.
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| Posted: Mon 28 Mar, 2016 11:50 am Post subject: Re: Bronze Age Battle at Tollense dated to 1250 B.C.E |
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| Niels Just Rasmussen wrote: |
I don't have any knowledge of Frankish/Saxon people wearing crosses as jewelry, but it would be very interesting if they didn't! |
That is what we are getting at, more specifically crosses with Jesus tied or nailed to it. I'm not sure if we can trust a 1969 documentary on whether or not crucifixes were common before the 10th century but those finds seem to suggest the Scandinavians were among the first to use that imagery.
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Niels Just Rasmussen
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| Posted: Tue 29 Mar, 2016 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Bronze Age Battle at Tollense dated to 1250 B.C.E |
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| Pieter B. wrote: | | Niels Just Rasmussen wrote: |
I don't have any knowledge of Frankish/Saxon people wearing crosses as jewelry, but it would be very interesting if they didn't! |
That is what we are getting at, more specifically crosses with Jesus tied or nailed to it. I'm not sure if we can trust a 1969 documentary on whether or not crucifixes were common before the 10th century but those finds seem to suggest the Scandinavians were among the first to use that imagery. |
It seems that processional crosses has been recovered from the "Dark Ages"!
Byzantine cross from mid 500's: No Jesus on it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Justin_II
Cross of Lothair from the 800's does in fact show Jesus (the one shown by Kenneth Clark) and here he is more "suffering"!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Lothair.
Under that wikipedia page it is stated that "Until about the 6th century, crosses rarely showed the figure of Christ, but by 1000 other grand jewelled crosses had already moved the crucifixion, usually in gilded cast bronze, to the front face of the cross, to make them crucifixes, which would remain the most common Catholic form of cross. Some examples are the crosses of Bernward of Hildesheim (c. 1000, Hildesheim Cathedral), Gisela of Hungary (Regensburg, 1006, now Munich Residenz[18]), and Mathilda of Essen (973, Essen Cathedral, see left),[19] which uses a virtually identical design for the terminals of the arms to the Lothair Cross."
So it seems that Frankish people at least started to have Christ on the cross from 1000 AD. It seems though these a processional crosses - the kind that could also be used to be carried before armies! So it was rare before late 900 AD to show Christ on the cross.
On academia.edu you have this book on primarily Byzantine jewelry.
Source: http://www.academia.edu/2051337/Byzantium_and...ndon_2012_
On page 93 (figure 14a.2) it is stated, that from the 5th century pectoral crosses became popular as female jewelry among the Byzantines. The example is without Jesus on the cross.
Pictures page 109-110 shows crosses from the 6-7th century with Jesus on it.
Anglo-Saxon crosses from the 6-7th century on page 190 doesn't have Jesus on them.
So it's more complicated. It arises on fashion some places and are absent in other.
Clearly the Scandinavian crosses with Jesus on them are very different types from the Byzantine examples, but you can't rule out an influence from Constantinople! You take the idea back to Scandinavia, but shape the jewelry in your own fashion/cultural mold. It seems the Scandinavian examples are also female jewelry, which could perhaps strengthen a Byzantine fashion connection, but the religious art is still being "Germanic".
Just because you find a cross doesn't even mean the wearer it Christian (as we understand it today) - it could be worn simply as fashion, because "that's what ladies do in Constantinople"!
I would say you can't rule out that it's "Odin in a Christian setting". You could have "polytheistic Christians" wearing both crosses and Thor's hammers as protection amulets against evil.
You even have a guy from Helgø, Sweden, buried with a Buddha figure from Kashmir, India; a Bishop's crozier from Ireland & a ladle from Egypt (Coptic Church).
Source: http://irisharchaeology.ie/2013/12/the-helgo-...ge-buddha/
So was he a Buddhist Celtic/Catholic-Coptic Christian? Nah - this is just Norse bragging and bling-bling - shows that the guy was well travelled (Kashmir, Ireland and Egypt is mightily impressive).
Had they found the Buddha figure alone, everyone would use it as "proof" of a Viking Buddhist.
The significance of the Golden cross from Aunslev could have been in its day "look it's gold" therefor proving the wearer is a noblewoman or royalty and "I'm wearing fashion like they do in Constantinople", but "mine is just prettier"!
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 01 Apr, 2016 8:39 am Post subject: Viking site found- well this be a topic for sure |
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New Viking Hearth in Newfoundland
Excellent use of tech and trowel. One hopes they are able to find some artifacts that may support the supposition. I am excited about the find but also a bit leery in my soul as I have spent a great deal of my life asking folks who claim Euro activity in the ancient new world for actual evidence. If this pans out I am a bit pensive about their renewed efforts to explain everything with ancient sailors traipsing hither and yon across the continent.
But we can deal with that later if they have found a nordic hearth there should be some material to indicate where they started from if the users where at all normal humans, they will have lost/left some sign. 
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Niels Just Rasmussen
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| Posted: Fri 01 Apr, 2016 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Viking site found- well this be a topic for sure |
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| Craig Johnson wrote: | New Viking Hearth in Newfoundland
Excellent use of tech and trowel. One hopes they are able to find some artifacts that may support the supposition. I am excited about the find but also a bit leery in my soul as I have spent a great deal of my life asking folks who claim Euro activity in the ancient new world for actual evidence. If this pans out I am a bit pensive about their renewed efforts to explain everything with ancient sailors traipsing hither and yon across the continent.
But we can deal with that later if they have found a nordic hearth there should be some material to indicate where they started from if the users where at all normal humans, they will have lost/left some sign. |
The lack of viking finds is probably merely the lack of people searching. If you find trace of vikings it will likely be quite minute as these were mostly only temporary points of known sheltered sites for storm or when doing repairs, so a very thorough search is needed to find lost or discarded items. From the sagas you know that Greenlanders travelled to North America for wood - so you needed to go there to repair your ship or bring wood back to Greenland if you could, as trade from Norway was irregular. Iceland's forest had also disappeared by that point and anyway only birch grew there which is no good for ships.
In Denmark you have tons of amateur archaeologist working the land with metal detectors reporting to professionals as soon as they locate anything interesting. If you had several thousands running around Newfoundland I'm pretty certain more stuff would turn up. I would think the coastal area down to Nova Scotia its very possible as well to find stepping points. Perhaps no real reason for the Greenlanders to make settlements other places if the goal is collecting wood, but it could have been explored on occasion.
I'm still perplexed why it is so hard to believe that Vikings reached North America.
Going from the settlements in Western Greenland to Newfoundland is like going from Norway to Iceland and that was done with regularity and the route from Western Greenland to Newfoundland it's much easier as you can follow the coast down from Baffin Island.
Scandinavians sailed to the Caspian Sea, Black Sea, through Gibraltar attacking Italy, deep into the Barents sea trading for furs in arctic Russia, to Iceland and Greenland.
Why is that so hard to understand that sailing from Greenland to North America is fairly easy. The distance from Greenland to Baffin Island is only around the same as Denmark to England (takes 1-2 days) and then you can follow the coastline south until you reach areas where you collect the wood you need.
It is Iceland to Greenland, that is the really dangerous route. [Directly from Norway to Iceland could be as well, but you could makes stops at Shetland and Faroe Islands on the way to make it less dangerous]. So I think a direct route from Greenland to Newfoundland way to risky and very unlikely when you have a much more safe alternative.
NB: Important also to note that the Scandinavian Greenlanders were Christian, though in hard weather someone would occasionally still call out to Thor to be on the safe side. These were farmers and not "vikings".
I agree though to have ancient people traveling from Europe directly to North America without any stop on the way is highly unlikely. It would need extraordinary evidence to believe.
The Phoenicians is the best bet as they probably did sail to England, Wales (and Ireland?) and probably the most famous of their explorers - Hanno the Navigator - perhaps all down to Gabon in Africa.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanno_the_Navigator
Yet Phoenicians seemed to conduct coastal exploration from their main Spanish port of Gades (Cadiz). That naval port prevented Greeks and Romans from entering the Atlantic causing the greek explorer Pytheas of Massalia to take another route through modern France to reach the Atlantic and entering the North Sea. He even reach the arctic circle and described the midnight sun as well as polar ice. Still a long way from North America though. Sadly educated greeks didn't believe him, which basically destroyed a possible golden age of greek exploration in its infancy.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pytheas
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Mark Lewis
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| Posted: Fri 01 Apr, 2016 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: Viking site found- well this be a topic for sure |
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| Niels Just Rasmussen wrote: | In Denmark you have tons of amateur archaeologist working the land with metal detectors reporting to professionals as soon as they locate anything interesting. If you had several thousands running around Newfoundland I'm pretty certain more stuff would turn up. I would think the coastal area down to Nova Scotia its very possible as well to find stepping points. Perhaps no real reason for the Greenlanders to make settlements other places if the goal is collecting wood, but it could have been explored on occasion.
I'm still perplexed why it is so hard to believe that Vikings reached North America. |
There is the one known site at Anse-aux-Meadows that confirms they did indeed reach North America... hope this new site pans out!
Metal-detecting will probably never become a common hobby here in Canada... the search area is large, and so much of it (particularly Newfoundland) is rough terrain, isolated, and sparsely populated. The potential rewards could never be as glamorous as what you can hope to find in Europe... no great battles here, no royal tombs...
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 01 Apr, 2016 2:35 pm Post subject: Norse acitivity in the new world |
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Hi Niels
I did not mean to imply I do not think they where on the east coast of the continent. In fact there is proof they where, as Mark stated. I just get to deal with a great deal of instances where people find things they feel prove the Vikings/Welsh/Irish/Romans/Etruscians take your pick, have occupied the new world. The fence topper or fraternal sword they have found in the woods/field/lake may not be as valuable as they think or prove their ancestors where here millennia before the indigenous people arrived. 
I am hoping it is a true norse find, but know there is much to do to come to that conclusion at this point.
Craig
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