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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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 Posted: Sun 24 Aug, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
On maille cuts by swords would mostly be blunt trauma injuries or temporary incapacitations that might leave the recipient open to more effective cuts. Not sure how effective thrusts are against mailles with the more cut specialized swords but I would see more use of thrusts.
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I tried fighting in my gambeson and mail in the SCA. I did it once and won't do it again because even with rattan swords getting hit even once hurts. Getting hit repeatedly with a real sword that concentrates the force on a much smaller area (the edge) will break bones even if no cut to the flesh is made. Most people prefer to use plates in the SCA for our own personal well being. We are using 15th century technology to protect ourselves from 12th century weapons but we are all assumed to be in mail.
I think that if anything is unrealistic in the SCA is the one good hit policy and your dead. I think in in a real battle with mailed opponents you make that first hit to stun them and then go to town on them. We do occasionally do tournaments were it is 3 successive hits and your dead. Problem is people loose track of how many times they have been hit so they are not done often.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Steven Reich
Location: Arlington, VA Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Sun 24 Aug, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | | Generally speaking... wrist cuts are too light for SCA fighting. In SCA we are all assumed to be wearing mail and open face helmets regardless of what we are actually wearing. It is 11th to 13th century fighting or Crusader era if that is easier to picture. The are no rules against wrist cuts, so if you can make one hard enough for people to acknowledge you are certainly free to do so. |
I guess I'm confused about something. Were you simulating armored or unarmored fighting? If the latter, then a wrist cut to the right spot will be effective. Maybe not "cleave the arm from the body" effective, but effective nonetheless (unless, of course, we doubt the writings of such masters as Marozzo, Manciolino, Dall'Agocchie, Fabris, Capoferro, etc., etc.). That said, not every cut should be a wrist-cut, and one of the problems we see often see in freeplay for 1500s and earlier sword-play is too much of a reliance on the wrist-cut (which is a symptom of another problem, but that is off-topic).
| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | | That is why we tested with no rules. Grappling, punching, kicking, low leg hits hand strikes were all allowed. We used steel blunts. How much more real can you get. |
Clearly, there were rules. While there may have been different rules than the standard SCA bout, there were rules. This doesn't mean that rules are bad (historically, even judicial duels had rules, not to mention non-lethal contests of arms and sports). However, it is important to understand how far from the "real thing" it is to engage in free-play armored-up and unafraid of injury. Note that I don't think that what you did is without value. It clearly has much value for you and your partner, as well as anyone who watches the video (since watching is the next best thing to doing). However, I think we need to be careful about what conclusions are drawn from this.
Steve
Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
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Chris Fields
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| Posted: Sun 24 Aug, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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To better this test, you should have many different people from both backgrounds do the same as you did. I'm sure you'll find that sometimes, the longswordsman will dominate, and other times the SCA guy will dominate. Just like any other martial art, it's more about the individual person than the art itself. =)
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Pierre T.
Location: Ottawa, Canada Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Sun 24 Aug, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: |
The person who challenged me to the duel believed the shield would not be a problem at all. He believed that it would limit my ability and that he could use it against me. I have herd other people express the same belief so it was worth the effort for me to travel cross-country and find out. |
Hmmm... if I would speculate, I would say that proper shield use takes a while to use. If someone tries a shield a bit and then forms an opinion, I would bet that many would conclude that the shield isn't very protective and is a hindrance against your own attacks. That's what I felt at first - it took me some times to be able to attack comfortably while wielding it, and at the same time use it effectively as a defensive tool.
That being said, the individual skills of the fighters count of a whole lot, and it's hard to divorce that aspect from the "gear X vs gear Y" aspect.
Pierre
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Sun 24 Aug, 2008 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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A couple of things...
I too thought the wraps were done with too much power against the mats to be really a viable attack...and even then 2 of the 4 swords failed to do much damage...and the third one just barely did it. Now againt unarmored, this is still a pretty valid threat. Against armor...I start to get a lot less sure about that.
How close SCA combat gets to historical combat, plausible historical combat or just sport depends rather heavily on individualy fighter groups. However to think that what you use in SCA doesn't translate into being able to use a real sword and shield effectively is folly. Even if it is purely modern dervived, a good SCA fighter will plant a sword in your temple just as easily as somebody who is good at Fiore longsword can.
As for individual skill...well I'll be fighting Adam Labor Day so I'll tell ya how it goes. But from what I saw in the vids, he's a VERY good fighter...and I'll be using a very BAD shield (too small, too heavy, too round and...not center gripped). This should be interesting  .
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Sun 24 Aug, 2008 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Steven Reich wrote: |
I guess I'm confused about something. Were you simulating armored or unarmored fighting? If the latter, then a wrist cut to the right spot will be effective.
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I absolutely agree with you given that I have been hit enough times on the fingers with just fencing swords to know it hurts. In this duel I saw no reason to aim for his hands which are so close to his weapon and behind a cross-guard when I had so much more of his body open at any given time. I preferred to stay within a patten that kept the most number of options open to me. I did hit him twice on the fingers while aiming for his left side as he moved his sword over to block. The hits to his fingers were purely incidental but I'll take them all the same. He was never able to target my sword-hand as it was moving it in and out of range from behind the shield.
When we fought side-sword vs side-sword we both used wrist cuts. In that case I had no shield so I wanted to keep the sword in front of my body for as long as possible and initiate my attacks from that defensive position. Wrist cuts served me better in that case.
| Pierre T. wrote: |
Hmmm... if I would speculate, I would say that proper shield use takes a while to use. If someone tries a shield a bit and then forms an opinion, I would bet that many would conclude that the shield isn't very protective and is a hindrance against your own attacks. That's what I felt at first - it took me some times to be able to attack comfortably while wielding it, and at the same time use it effectively as a defensive tool.
Pierre |
I will go further an say it is just as difficult as any other weapon form to learn. You can't expect to pick up a shield and know how to use it effectively. When you strike one hand forward you naturally bring the other one back as a counter-balance. In shieldfighting you have to train yourself to keep the shield in front of you and fight around it. This does not just happen on its own. You need to be instructed, observed and corrected over a period of time just to get the basics right. Then you can begin learning how to fight 
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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E Stafford
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| Posted: Sun 24 Aug, 2008 11:27 pm Post subject: Rapier |
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I'm more of a rapier fighter for this, and I really really really don't feel like fighting with people over this, mostly because it's been a bad weekend for fights, but I'm wondering something: how does rapier fencing face up in the SCA vs historical. I know right off the bat that disarms and groundfighting, as well as fisticuffs are not allowed. Two handed fighting, ie dagger, cloak or buckler is cool. Grabbing the blade isn't allowed, and I'm wondering about that vs the open hand gliding that is done (if it were up to me, I'd be using a chain mail glove in that case), and the "breaking" that happens. How were hard shots handled in the olden times? Just curious, so no cat needs to die here. After all, knowing one's limits allows one to surpass them.
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Mon 25 Aug, 2008 5:17 am Post subject: Re: Rapier |
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| E Stafford wrote: | | I'm more of a rapier fighter for this, and I really really really don't feel like fighting with people over this, mostly because it's been a bad weekend for fights, but I'm wondering something: how does rapier fencing face up in the SCA vs historical. I know right off the bat that disarms and groundfighting, as well as fisticuffs are not allowed. Two handed fighting, ie dagger, cloak or buckler is cool. Grabbing the blade isn't allowed, and I'm wondering about that vs the open hand gliding that is done (if it were up to me, I'd be using a chain mail glove in that case), and the "breaking" that happens. How were hard shots handled in the olden times? Just curious, so no cat needs to die here. After all, knowing one's limits allows one to surpass them. |
I do rapier fighting in the SCA too. My opinion is that all the important stuff is there. To me that is the bladework, distance, timing. I feel that disallowing grappling and other rough housing does not take away from practicing the fundamental skills. You will find people with different levels of skill across the SCA. Some work specificaly from historical manuals , others have a classical background others do there own thing. It is a mater of finding a good practice and people who are willing to commit to training you. A number of people at my practice train or have trained at The Martinez Academy of Arms and some other fencing schools in my area. One of the things I like about SCA rapier is that you are able to fence a large variety of people from different backgrounds and pick up different pointers.
The SCA is not set up as a school with one orthodox way of doing things. The SCA is set up as a collection or practices and events with a set of rules in place for safety. At the practices you can enter in relationships with people who will commit to training you or just pick up tips as you go along from various people. You don't need to be a member to participate. You can get your instruction somewhere else and just show up at an SCA practice every few months for a change of pace. What I am trying to make clear is that there is no one SCA way of fencing or doing anything within the SCA. There is no formally established orthodoxy other then the safety rules.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
Last edited by Bill Tsafa on Mon 25 Aug, 2008 7:04 am; edited 2 times in total
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Steven Reich
Location: Arlington, VA Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Mon 25 Aug, 2008 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| P. Cha wrote: | | I too thought the wraps were done with too much power against the mats to be really a viable attack...and even then 2 of the 4 swords failed to do much damage...and the third one just barely did it. Now against unarmored, this is still a pretty valid threat. Against armor...I start to get a lot less sure about that. |
Let's be clear on this--even a true-edge shot isn't going to do much to most armor. While the percussion *might* do something, depending on where it hits (i.e. concussion from a hit to the head or possible broken bone with strong hit to limb unprotected by rigid armor), as such, it's really a matter of what it will do to unarmored or lightly armored targets. The "barely damaging" cuts will still be pretty significant if delivered to your unarmored head.
| P. Cha wrote: | | How close SCA combat gets to historical combat, plausible historical combat or just sport depends rather heavily on individualy fighter groups. However to think that what you use in SCA doesn't translate into being able to use a real sword and shield effectively is folly. Even if it is purely modern dervived, a good SCA fighter will plant a sword in your temple just as easily as somebody who is good at Fiore longsword can. |
It depends on what you use with sword-and-shield (or whatever else). It is folly to think that if you have developed your skill purely through SCA fighting that you have learned a *martial* style. You haven't, you've learned a sport (note, this isn't directed at Paul--he is actually a formal student of German longsword with a very reputable group). Thus, while you can be quite successful all armored up and flailing away with rattan, that doesn't automatically translate to steel (especially sharp steel)--they can be quite different (and no, I'm not talking about the lack of targets below the knee). Now that doesn't mean that you can't learn a martial system of swordsmanship and use it (what's legal) in the SCA--that is a recipe used very successfully by many people now.
Steve
Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Mon 25 Aug, 2008 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| Sam N. wrote: | | This might explain why we don't really find wraps (to my knowledge) in most manuals, because those manuals are usually from after 1300, when armour and thinner, stiffer swords start to become more popular (conditions that don't favour the wrap). |
But some forms of the Schielhau and Sturzhau are wraps!
| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | | One of the comments Adam made was that on-side and off-side shots (horizontal cuts) I make are very similar to the "Zwerchhau". So much so that he referred to them as Zwerch'es. |
It's another thing I noticed--and indeed, on the few occasions when I tried sword-and-target fighting, the Zwerchhau (or its Italian traversi counterpart) seems to be both an instinctive and effective move.
| Mike Capanelli wrote: | | It seems that after failing an attack he tends to cut over and around the other sword, pulling the shot in instead of displacing it out and bringing the point to bear at the same time. I know I'm not being very clear here but i hope you get my point. As Chris said thrusting and winding around he block would work much better. |
I'd agree with that. There were many situations at the bind where the longswordsman (Adam Sharp?) should have been able to capitalize on a bind by winding into a thrust.
| Jared Smith wrote: | | I am wondering how many other sport combat groups regularly attempt to simulate the type of mass battle situations that were historically a part of Western medieval European history? |
I don't know about sport combat groups, and I'm not sure about mass battles, but I remember the time when I volunteered into a civil defense riot squad program and got trained in some interesting shield-and-baton techniques for use against masses of rioters or unruly demonstrators. I never got to use it, though--but there are probably some policemen and ex-policemen in this forum who had some experiences worth telling on that front.
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Anders Nilsson
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| Posted: Mon 25 Aug, 2008 8:15 am Post subject: |
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I find your cutting vids quite interesting.
The back edge was used, if not, there wouldnīt have been a back edge.
I think that it was used mainly for drawcuts. Those are quite effective. If you are up close, make a drawcut on the back of the oponents knee and heīs down.
As to SCA fighting.
There are some good fighters in the SCA that study manuals and train hard, no question about that.
When I started experimenting with swords I trained for a while with SCA.
The things that I didnīt like and it flawed was the lack of good simulators. The best fighter in the group I trained with was using a 2handed sword upsidedown in the left hand and a 1handed sword in the right.
That wouldnīt work with real weapons.
His armour was also way to "Fantasy". He had a Hoplite helmet, 1350 coat of plates, 1450 arms and gloves and tennis shoes.
If you want to train swordfighting you need simulators that behave like real weapons, and if you want to train in armour, you need armour that behaves like real armour.
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Randall Pleasant
Location: Flower Mound, Texas Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Mon 25 Aug, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: | | But some forms of the Schielhau and Sturzhau are wraps! |
Lafayette
I must strongly disagree! That a wrap might hit with the false edge (in actual practice it problem hits with the flat more often) or share some bio-mechanical similarity to a historica strike does not make it historical. If hitting with the false edge was the sole criterial of what a strike is then the Zwerchhau and the Schielhau would be the same cut, but they are not. The Wrap Shot is what it is...a non-historical creation of the SCA that is used to hit someone in the back of the head while standing nose-to-nose. I don't know of a single historical master that teaches one to stand nose-to-nose while attempting to hit the back of the head. The only historical strikes are those written about by the historical masters.
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Mon 25 Aug, 2008 9:05 am Post subject: |
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Hi Randall,
It actually depends - there are different types of blows referred to by SCA members as 'wrap shots'. Certainly, the most commonly referred to one, which requires very close range, is a different beast than the Zwerchhau, Schielhau or Sturzhau.
I'd argue that a Schielhau or Zwerchhau isn't a wrap of any kind, as it doesn't 'curl around' the target, while the Sturzhau does look a bit like what some SCA people might consider a wrap.
They're used differently in a tactical sense anyway. A Sturzhau is used to close the line with what seems like an Oberhau that then turns over to hit over and/or around his parry with the short edge. On the other hand, SCA wrap shots are thrown specifically to get around the shield; there's no need to 'draw the parry'.
Best,
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Mon 25 Aug, 2008 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| Randall Pleasant wrote: | [
I must strongly disagree! That a wrap might hit with the false edge (in actual practice it problem hits with the flat more often) or share some bio-mechanical similarity to a historica strike does not make it historical. If hitting with the false edge was the sole criterial of what a strike is then the Zwerchhau and the Schielhau would be the same cut, but they are not. The Wrap Shot is what it is...a non-historical creation of the SCA that is used to hit someone in the back of the head while standing nose-to-nose. I don't know of a single historical master that teaches one to stand nose-to-nose while attempting to hit the back of the head. The only historical strikes are those written about by the historical masters.
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW |
I have to agree with Anders.... the reason that an arming sword has a back edge is so that it can be used. I generally don't stand nose to nose with a fighter (unless I am practicing a particular technique). Most good fighters do a lot of lateral movements to the side and fight at different ranges. In my particular duel, my opponent wanted to be either far out of range or wanted to close in and grapple. When he closed in the wrap was one of the tools I had available. To tell me I can't use the wrap, when in the cutting video if clearly works, is the same as telling my opponent he can't grapple. You would be imposing rules on something that is not meant to have rules.
There is also a different variation of the wrap that is common called a half-wrap. That is a basically and extended wrap at a distance. It can made at a wide variety of angles from over the top of the head, to the side, to down low behind the hamstring. The depth of that wrap is more shallow. You are only putting the tip of the sword around a shield or another weapon. The sword is fairly extended and does not wrap around completely.
The purpose of this topic is not intended to argue that SCA fighting is historical... it is intended to demonstrate that it is functional. From that point it may be argued that ancient and medieval people were just as smart and crafty as we are today and likely would have thought of and used a sword in any way that works.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Randall Pleasant
Location: Flower Mound, Texas Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Mon 25 Aug, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | | The purpose of this topic is not intended to argue that SCA fighting is historical... it is intended to demonstrate that it is functional. |
Bill
My reply was not in regard to functionality of the wrap shot within SCA fighting. The intent of my reply was to disagree with someone suggesting that "some forms of the Schielhau and Sturzhau are wraps". Regardless of any similarities, the Schielhau and Sturzhau are not wraps. Taking two similar things from different places in time and space and suggesting that they are the same thing is a classic research problem in Anthropology and Archaeology (see Lewis Binford's writings on the use of analogies). It is good to see WMA flowing into the SCA. However, there should be no flowing of SCA techniques into WMA. The incorporation of any SCA techniques in WMA must be viewed as a pollution to the arts that we are attempting to recreate.
All the best,
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Marc Pengryffyn
Location: Canberra, Australia Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 72
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| Posted: Mon 25 Aug, 2008 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Randall Pleasant
The incorporation of any SCA techniques in WMA must be viewed as a pollution to the arts that we are attempting to recreate.
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Hi Randall
I respect your comittment to keeping you art pure, although I might question that the extant manuals reflect the totality of historical martial practice. But that word "pollution"...... Perhaps ill-chosen?
Regards
Marc
Tradition is the illusion of permanence.
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Steven Reich
Location: Arlington, VA Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Mon 25 Aug, 2008 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Marc Pengryffyn wrote: | | I respect your comittment to keeping you art pure, although I might question that the extant manuals reflect the totality of historical martial practice. But that word "pollution"...... Perhaps ill-chosen? |
Actually, with our level of understanding, I think that it is a very accurate term. When we have people who wholly understand and have mastered all of a particular system, then they can start looking beyond the treatises without polluting what is there. However, adding to an art without first understanding it is polluting it.
Steve
Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 25 Aug, 2008 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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Even in period there must have been some who thought they had found a " secret " technique and used it or tried to use it in a real fight: The lucky one's actually found something useful and may have transmitted the knowledge to selected others or added to the " repertoire " of known period techniques ? Others less lucky or skilful may not have survived to transmit anything or selfishly took their secrets to the grave!  
Keeping the study of period techniques " pure " has merit at least in keeping separate what is known and proven as period technique from other unproved techniques, but this shouldn't mean not trying things out to see if they might work with the " systems " of period techniques or work well against them.
These things were originally discovered by trial and error over centuries but each technique had to start with at least someone trying something " unproved " to be effective.
Now, if we could bring a few or the best master swordsmen of the past to show us how they actually did things they would also be able to show us why a " wrap ", or anything else we might invent today, is not optimum and exactly why it would be a bad idea in a real fight !?
We might actually show them something they never used themselves that they might like or like with some modifications based on their real fighting experience.
I guess I also mean that do we just try to rediscover the original techniques, and only those techniques, or aren't we also free to try and find what works the best ! ( Do both but be very clear which is which ...... Hopefully this is possible ).
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Marc Pengryffyn
Location: Canberra, Australia Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 72
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| Posted: Mon 25 Aug, 2008 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Even in period there must have been some who thought they had found a " secret " technique and used it or tried to use it in a real fight: ...
...I guess I also mean that do we just try to rediscover the original techniques, and only those techniques, or aren't we also free to try and find what works the best ! ( Do both but be very clear which is which ...... Hopefully this is possible ). |
Thank you Jean, I think you put it very well!
I can understand that some people want to re-create history as accurately as possible. I respect their dedication and admire their achievements, even if it's not what I want to pursue myself.
I suppose this brings me back to part of what I was asking about earlier in this thread- the difference between WMA and HEMA. My understanding was that HEMA groups were attempting to re-create historical martial arts as accurately as possible from the historical materials that have survived till the present, whereas WMA groups were more open to experimentation and the mixing of diverse styles and techniques from many sources and eras. And yet a number of people in this thread seem to be speaking as if only historically demonstrable techniques are permitted in WMA.
So, again, I'm confused. Is there no distinction between HEMA and WMA? If not, then what do we call people who want to be more creative about their exploration of martial arts in a western context?
Tradition is the illusion of permanence.
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Mon 25 Aug, 2008 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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Many people in the SCA, including myself, very much support the WMA community and participate in it. We believe in keeping the two separate. We value a tradition based on historical study because it gives us a point of reference that the individual can either try to follow in SCA fighting or take chance and try to surpass. Regardless which path they choose we have a fixed standard for comparison and evaluation in WMA that we most of us appreciate.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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