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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 06 Aug, 2008 1:15 pm    Post subject: Swords with Type U pommels         Reply with quote

I've always liked Type U pommels (sometimes called key-shaped). A&A uses one on their English Longsword. Albion's Viceroy sports one, too.

There is one historical example, in Zurich's Landesmuseum, that gets mentioned a lot. There are several others, though, and I thought people might like to see them.

The first is an estoc formerly in the collection of Eric Valentine, who published it in his book Rapiers: An Illustrated Reference Guide to the Rapiers of the 16th and 17th Centuries, and their Companions. It's German. The blade is dated 1546, but the hilt is thought to be half a century earlier. It was in the UK-based antiques dealer Peter Finer's 1996 catalogue. The listed asking price, as can be seen, was $42,000. Arms & Armor replicated it as a custom piece:



The second is from a private collection. Photo by me. I don't have dates for it or much info on it. The grip and cross are slightly loose, but I remember it to be a lively sword.



 Attachment: 37.05 KB
Valentine 1.jpg
German Estoc, 1546. Copyright Peter Finer

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Valentine 2.jpg
German Estoc, 1546. Copyright Peter Finer

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Valentine text.jpg
Text Copyright Peter Finer

 Attachment: 27.92 KB
GothicEstoc.jpg
Thrusting sword. 15th century?

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Last edited by Chad Arnow on Wed 06 Aug, 2008 1:31 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 06 Aug, 2008 1:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another one, from Peter Finer's 2003 catalogue. It's also a German estoc, but from circa 1480.


 Attachment: 24.81 KB
Peter Finer 1.jpg
German estoc, circa 1480. Copyright Peter Finer.

 Attachment: 10.12 KB
Peter Finer 2.jpg
German estoc, circa 1480. Copyright Peter Finer.

 Attachment: 100.72 KB
pf text 1.jpg
Text copyright Peter Finer

 Attachment: 136.11 KB
pf text 2.jpg
Text copyright Peter Finer

 Attachment: 129.1 KB
pf text 3.jpg
Text copyright Peter Finer

 Attachment: 118.48 KB
pf text 4.jpg
Text copyright Peter Finer

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 06 Aug, 2008 8:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's another (this one from the State Art Collections Dresden, Germany), from Arma Bohemia's website:



Anyone know of any others?

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Mike Capanelli




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PostPosted: Wed 06 Aug, 2008 9:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm a fan of this pommel type as well. I was going to commission Ollinswords to do a hollow ground type u affair but one thing or another always seems to come up. There was a seller on ebay who had what he claimed was a 15th century sword with a wonderful type U and an s guard that was going to be the basis for my custom order but when my computer crashed I lost all of my pictures of it. Oh well.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Aug, 2008 8:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's interesting the similarities and differences between the swords I've found so far in this family. They all have a fairly high rivet block/tang button. The guards all curve down, except for the Dresden sword. They all have decoration and/or a ridge along their middle.

I think they're cool. Happy

Anyone know of any more like this? Or do you have good pics of the one in the Landesmuseum? Albion has this one as one of the inspirations for the Viceroy:



I think they show up in period art fairly often. Below is the one A&A used as inspiration for the English Longsword.



 Attachment: 108.04 KB
AA longsword.jpg
From an altar panel by Van Der Goes.

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Aug, 2008 8:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are a couple.


 Attachment: 14.97 KB
Germanisches Nationalmuseum, Nürnberg [ Download ]

 Attachment: 104.35 KB
From the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum, München [ Download ]

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Aug, 2008 8:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Here are a couple.


That second one looks odd to me. Any thoughts on whether it's genuine?

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Aug, 2008 9:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Nathan Robinson wrote:
Here are a couple.


That second one looks odd to me. Any thoughts on whether it's genuine?


The pommel looks fine. Are you asking because of the odd cross-guard or the pristine grip??

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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

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PostPosted: Fri 08 Aug, 2008 9:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:

The pommel looks fine. Are you asking because of the odd cross-guard or the pristine grip??


Yes to both. The guard is so flat and plain (though the harsh light could be washing out some details) and the grip looks just like the one on the Royal Armouries sword that is now thought to be not entirely genuine (replicated by Del Tin and MRL).

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