authenticate a dirk -- myArmoury.com

William Atkin · Posted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 3:12 am Post subject: authenticate a dirk

Gday team

This has been offered to me. I would like to authenticate it. What do you think?

Bill

William Atkin · Posted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 3:29 am Post subject: try again authenticate a dirk

Sorry I lost the pics

What do you think of this?

I am trying to date and locate this one.

cheers

Bill

Lin Robinson · Posted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 3:36 am Post subject: Re: try again authenticate a dirk

William Atkin · Posted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 3:46 am Post subject:

Hello Lin

Yes, It is eaither later or a very well preserved (? by a gentleman) period piece.

The inscription says

"Ask me not for schame
drink Lis and by ane"

I take this to mean

"do not use me for shameful deeds
when drunk, to defend lies or for greed"

Bill

Lin Robinson · Posted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 4:51 am Post subject:

Sean Flynt · Posted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 7:10 am Post subject:

That inscription is identical to that on a documented piece. I forget where I read about it--maybe Culloden: The Swords and the Sorrows. The author interpreted it as meaning: "Don't ask me for this. Drink less and buy one." One assumes this would be reserved for an especially fine arm, but are there really two of them still existing? It's a red flag to me. But there are lots of spurious inscriptions on genuine antiques. Some of them are even contemporary to the antique. "Andrea Ferrara" is a good example. It's certainly plausible that the inscription in question could have been passed around freely.

The hilt could have been cleaned. If it's modern, it's still very fine work. Beautiful, in fact. Look at those brass pins (approx. 100). They're made from tiny strips of metal folded into shape. See the overlap on some of them? Making and mounting those required a HUGE amount of work. Why go to that trouble when the market prefers knotwork? And that scalloped brass backing....

If this were a modern piece by a well-known cutler I wouldn't be surprised to see a price of $700+. If an unknown master cutler can get that kind of price legally, I think he's not likely to risk jail and fines for fraud. But maybe it is composite work honestly commissioned and honestly completed, but now separated from its collector. Do antique dealers ever mislabel or otherwise lead astray? Maybe once or twice....

I lean toward "authentic, with over-cleaned or refinished hilt." The price could tip me the other way, though. Either crazy expensive or crazy inexpensive would make me suspicious.

Lin Robinson · Posted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 8:29 am Post subject:

Christopher Gregg · Posted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 8:33 am Post subject: Authenticate a dirk

I'm going to have to chime in that it is an antique blade and furniture, but with a (possible) Victorian hilt replacement. I have seen many attempts at antiquing metal parts, but this looks to be really old - the patina looks quite natural, and the design of the brass work seems to fit a late 17th - early 18th century style. In any case, it's a beautiful piece, well worth a grand or more, IMO. Thanks for sharing!

Sean Flynt · Posted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 8:52 am Post subject:

So, a fine 19th c. hilt on an 18th c. blade? Works for me! It's a beautiful piece, no matter what.

Yeah, my Andrea Ferrara analogy is weak....it seems to have been used as you indicate, as a generic indicator of quality rather than an attempt to fool they buyer.

GG Osborne · Posted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: Dirk inscription

The sentiment on the dirk was a very common one, Sean. I have seen it on numerous items from the period including powder horns. I have also seen it expressed as "Ask me not for shame. My Meister wil deny thee. Drink les and by ane.' And I agree with the interpretation 'Shame on you for asking to borrow me. If you drank less you could afford me.' Having seen a number of dirks with this type of inscription and other s in much the same style (ex: "God Loves King James", etc.) gives me the thought that these blades may have been made up in Germany for export to Scotland with 'traditional'
mottos for the trade.

As to the providence, the grip is in just a whole lot better shape than the blade. The brass strip isn't an issue as it is more of a mark of authenticity. Other than decoration, it served the purpose of 'grabbing' a sharp blade sliding along its edge. Brass being softer than steel would 'catch' the blade.

Personally, I believe you have an authentic pommel nut, pommel cap and blade on a replacement grip. I love the dirk as it is a unique one.

By the way, many of us who fancy dirks sometimes get caught up in comparing everything we see to the 'Dirty Dozen' we see illustrated in many books and picture trails that are part of important Scottish museum collections. The reserve collections - not displayed - probably contain hundreds of dirks. We judge based on the few we see illustrated often when the whole body of extant work is much more diverse and voluminous.

William Atkin · Posted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 7:59 pm Post subject:

Thanks team

Can anyone show a similar handle that can match this one?

Bill

Kelly Powell · Posted: Wed 18 Jun, 2008 4:18 am Post subject:

Truly am amazed that the point has remained intact!I'd expect it to have been broken off a few times and re-ground........

Lin Robinson · Posted: Wed 18 Jun, 2008 11:37 am Post subject:

William Atkin · Posted: Thu 19 Jun, 2008 12:55 am Post subject:

Team

Thank you very much.

I agree it is a period blade but witha later refurbished handle. Unless I can find some individualistic handle maker from the period.

I have decided to not take up the item as it does not fit within my goals.

If anyone wants me to suggest contact with the vendor - I will ask him. The item is priced for serious money - more serious than mentioned so far on this thread.

lang may thy lums reek

Bill

Thom R. · Posted: Thu 19 Jun, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject:

Late to the party as usual but I would just like to point out
1. there are a number of very "enigmatic" (i.e. not the usual carved knotwork) dirk hilts in the 1650-1710 period. many of these use brass and horn and even ivory and "german silver" and typically they have a wide pommel cap - which this one has........
2. both Forman and Oakeshott have documented dirk blades and powder horns with this inscription going back into the late 17th c. so the engraving is probably executed by a Scot although could have been done in Germany I suppose
3. the pommel cap is carved in a pattern similar to 2 dirks that have been dated to pre-1700, including the one in Neumann (#25.K)

so I don't think we should rule out the possibility that this is a late 17th c piece although the handle is unusual and as Mr. Osborne stated maybe the blade and pommel pieces are original with a later (18th or 19th c) handle replacement.

Its an interesting piece nonetheless. the handle is very well executed. thanks for sharing! TR

Lin Robinson · Posted: Thu 19 Jun, 2008 2:32 pm Post subject:

Lin Robinson · Posted: Thu 19 Jun, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject:

GG Osborne · Posted: Thu 19 Jun, 2008 7:47 pm Post subject:

I have recently seen a couple of dirks from a private collection that have very similar mottoes and scroll treatments such as on this dirk. I haven't seen enough to make up my mind if this was just a stylistic affectation common during a period or if - and I am inclined in this direction - these dirk blades were the equivalent of the 'rhyming' Jacobite blades that were somewhat mass produced. And you know, shoot, this is just a pretty dirk with very nice workmanship regardless of when it was made. I just admire it for the craftsmanship!

William Atkin · Posted: Fri 20 Jun, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject:

Thanks team

As a learning exercise. Where can I look at the variations on dirk handles?

cheers

Bill

Christopher Gregg · Posted: Fri 20 Jun, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: Dirks

Bill, try this link for myArmoury's review of The Scottish Dirk: http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spot_dirks.html