[Geoff Wood]

Can anyone give me dates for the period of transition from the round, boss handled, shield to the kite (or later, e.g. long or short heater) shield forms in Europe (or in any particular part of Europe) (I'm ignoring bucklers for now)? Would Hardrada's men have used the kite type at Stamford bridge? Is there any evidence of transitional forms involving curvature or more complex strapping of round shields, or of kite shields that were flat or boss handled? Alternatively, if these are a silly questions, could you, perhaps, enlighten me as to the more sensible ones ones that I should be asking.
Thanks
Geoff

[Allan Senefelder]

Harold Harada's guys would have predominatly used the round Viking/Anglo Saxon type as far as i'm aware.
England being an island held on to the equipment of both the Saxon and later Viking invaders and didn't
really adopt the tear drop shield until the Normans took over . The teardrop shield is more suited to mounted use
and the Normans were quick to adopt the couched lance , close order massed cavalry charge while the round
shield was better suited to infantry use which the Anglo Saxon English troops were predominently .

[Elling Polden]

As far as my experience goes, the kite is a exelent infantry shield as well, as it offers better coverage and controll than the round shield.
Early norman and scandinavian kites had shield bosses, but most likely only for decorational purposes. They gradually got smaller and smaller until they disapeared entirely in the 13th century.
Im not quite sure what kind of shields Harld Hardråde and his krew would use, but kites where used for infantry and cavalry in norway in the 1100's. Round shields where retained by some leidang (levy) troops, and for naval use, until the early 1300s, but become increasingly rare.

Yours
Elling

[Felix Wang]

The first mention of long "three-cornered" shields is from Byzantium, about 975.

The first records of kite shaped shields in the West are illustrations, from Catalonia and Germany, both around 1040 -1050.

It is likely that some of the early kite shields were flat, if not most. In the Bayeux Tapestry, one scene shows some Normans dining off a shield used as a table, so it was pretty much flat. As Elling noted, some early kite shields had bosses, but these were not part of the handle, although they likely had defensive value. As far as I know, there were no arm-strapped round shields - the Tapestry does show a couple of Saxons using large round shields, and they are clearly center-gripped. They may have been domed / curved, but there is no physical evidence for curved round shields that I know off.

The choices were pretty much center-grip round shields and arm-strapped long shields (flat or curved).

[David R. Glier]

I'm going to take exception with the "no strapped rounds" and say we have some from the 15th and 16th centuries -spain and italy.

I won't dispute the era in question, although I think I've seen iconography to the contrary... But, it's not my period.

[Felix Wang]

True enough for the rondellos and targets. It is also true that the Classical Greek apsis was round and strapped to the arm. But for the period in question, I don't know of any strapped, round shields.

[Allan Senefelder]

Carolingian and Merovingian art show convex round shields quit a bit . Theres alot of church art showing round
shields through the early years of the 12th century .

Regarding the teardrop shield and round shield and thier best suited uses . The tear drop shield is better suited
to use in a close frormation with couched lances because of its shape . It ran from toe to chin basically following the
contours of the horse to give the knight coverage on his off side while still allowing the man next to him to get close
and couch his lance . The tear drop shield worked fine on foot but by virtue of its shape did not lend itself to forming
a shield wall like Harolds men used anywhere near as well as the round shield which by virtue of its greater width
allowed it to to be used like the Greek round shields of the classical era .

With the exception of The Bayeaux Tapestry which shows virtually no distinction between Norman and English
in terms of equipment ( only missle troops seem to be differently equipped and this eems only to be that
they have no armour and bows) most 11th century illuminations i've seen show not just round and teardrop/kite ,
but also oval shaped shields .

[Allen W]

The Bayeux Tapestry shows both sides using both round and kite shaped shields. On page 34 of Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight(Edge and Paddock) there is a picture from the tapestry showing Kite shields on both sides.

[Allan Senefelder]

As I said with the exception of the Bayeuax Tapestry . Normans and English are virtually indistinguishable from each other
in the tapestry . The Tapestry was also ,made by the winners and sewn by women who were not present and who's
only model for the equipment was thier Norman noble husbands and thier retainers . Most all of the illustrated
material and sculpted material i've encountered from this period is religious in nature and all three shield shapes
are to be found so either Hastings was the sole exception for the period in having every participant from both sides
using identicle gear or the tapestry is a stylized representation . The tapestry is a great source of information but
it was made most seem to agree at least 20 years after the battle and by those who won it .

[Geoff Wood]

Sorry, been off air for a while. Thanks to everyone for their contributions.
Geoff