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Dustin R. Reagan
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 Posted: Mon 12 May, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: A small messer or bauernwehr I'm working on - my first sword |
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It's just over 27 inches in all...pretty short. Not sure if it still could be called a messer? I'm using the messers illustrated in Lechuckner:
http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb00002184/image...p;seite=11
As inspiration.
Proportionally, it is similarly sized to a period illustration (can't find it at the moment)...basically, if suspended in a sheath as in the illustration, it hangs down to just about the same point on my leg as the illustrated weapon does.
It's hand-forged from 9260, it will have bone slabs riveted with brass rivets. Obviously, it still needs quite a bit of finishing work...it still has the forge scale on.
I'm just doing this for fun...I'm just a hobbyist. It's my first sword (if you can call it that)!
Dustin
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Gary A. Chelette
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| Posted: Tue 13 May, 2008 7:21 am Post subject: |
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This looks like a small archers falchion or a Italian falchion.
The blade is definitely a falchion blade.
Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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Doug Lester
Location: Decatur, IL Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 167
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| Posted: Tue 13 May, 2008 7:42 am Post subject: |
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I'm of a different opinion than Gary, and that's not to say that he's wrong and I'm right, I just have a different opinion. To me there is little difference between a falchion and a messer. By what I understand a falchion has a sword hilt with a stick tang and a large pommel on the end. A Messer has a full tang with a sandwiched scales with a bolster layed over the tang in two pieces a rivited on. Both can have a straight clipped blade and both had pretty much same history as a common man's weapon that was sometimes used by the aristocracy because of it's combat qualities.
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Peter Grassmann
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| Posted: Tue 13 May, 2008 9:49 am Post subject: |
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It's a weapon from the larger group of "riveted weapons" evolving in the 14th/15th century. The Bauernwehr and Messer belong to this group (the Falchion does not). This type of short sword with a crossguard is quite rare and mostly known from illustrations. Look at older postings from me about the topic.
Peter
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Kelly Powell
Location: lawrence, kansas Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Tue 13 May, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: |
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Isn't a messer lighter then a falchion? I allways thought they had a thinner blade and was more of a dueling weapon, while a falchion was more of a battle blade designed as much of a mass weapon as a bladed one.
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Sean Flynt
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| Posted: Tue 13 May, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Kelly Powell wrote: | | Isn't a messer lighter then a falchion? I allways thought they had a thinner blade and was more of a dueling weapon, while a falchion was more of a battle blade designed as much of a mass weapon as a bladed one. |
Peter Johnsson has pointed out that falchions are not heavier than other swords. And messers were general-duty weapons, not confined to dueling. The designs are comparable, as far as I know. Both have a (roughly) wedge-shaped section. There's greater variety in size among messers, though.
Given a messer and falchion of the same overall dimensions, and if both have pommels, I would guess that the messer might weigh slightly more due to the rivets and (mainly) the "nagel" that pins the cross in place and protects the outside of the hand. I wouldn't expect the blade thickness to be radically different.
-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Dustin R. Reagan
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| Posted: Tue 13 May, 2008 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Sean Flynt wrote: | | Kelly Powell wrote: | | Isn't a messer lighter then a falchion? I allways thought they had a thinner blade and was more of a dueling weapon, while a falchion was more of a battle blade designed as much of a mass weapon as a bladed one. |
Peter Johnsson has pointed out that falchions are not heavier than other swords. And messers were general-duty weapons, not confined to dueling. The designs are comparable, as far as I know. Both have a (roughly) wedge-shaped section. There's greater variety in size among messers, though.
Given a messer and falchion of the same overall dimensions, and if both have pommels, I would guess that the messer might weigh slightly more due to the rivets and (mainly) the "nagel" that pins the cross in place and protects the outside of the hand. I wouldn't expect the blade thickness to be radically different. |
I would have imagined that Kelly's description is accurate. That is, messer = lighter dueling weapon, while falcion = sturdy battlefield weapon. Of course, now that I think about it, there is no reason for this distinction, as one of the main distinguishing factors between the two (riveted, vs non-riveted hilt construction) is probably more of an aesthetic difference? There is no reason one couldn't have a strong, sturdy blade with a nice riveted hilt, or a light blade with a fine edge geometry and a stick tang hilt. Just curious, what does the archeology have to say about this? My impression is that since many (most?) messer were of "peasant" quality not many survived?
I would have supposed that generally messer (is the plural messer or messers?) were geared towards dueling as they were the most common civilian-carry weapon during the 14th century? Were there just as many everyday-wear falchions in use by the common civilian population during this period as well?
Thanks for any evidence either way.
Dustin
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Dan Dickinson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 14 May, 2008 8:02 am Post subject: |
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I think taking a look at one of our spotlight topics might be beneficial to this discussion.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=8806
On another note, looks like a great start on the project, keep up the good work.
Dan
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Peter Grassmann
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| Posted: Thu 15 May, 2008 11:51 am Post subject: |
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A messer and a falchion have NOTHING to do with each other. The falchion is a much earlier development. Look at the hilts and compare: the falchion has a sword-like symmetrical hilt with a full grip, a pommel and a cross, whereas the Messer has an asymmetrical hilt that is riveted on the tang. The messer most likely evolved out of bauernwehr-like weapons in the 14th or early 15th century, at least it is part of a much greater development. In the late middle ages, riveted knives began to become more and more popular, and it is no coincidence that the first Bauernwehren emerge shortly after (one of the oldest pieces I know of is from ~1400 and was found in Heidelberg).
Remember that there are dozens of different types of weapons in the 15th and 16th century that all share the same characteristics: asymmetrical, riveted handles and a single edged blade. This is a development on its own that has nothing to do with the Falchion/Malchus.
Look at this schema I have made for my upcoming homepage. It shows different types of weapons. You can see the characteristics. The last two are Messers (Nr. V and VII are part of my collection).
Peter
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Peter Grassmann
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| Posted: Thu 15 May, 2008 11:57 am Post subject: |
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The usage: The Messer was neither a sheer duelling weapon nor a peasent's sword. It can be seen worn by any non-knightly man in pictures from the 15th century. In the 16th century, they became to be used by the Landsknechte until it slowly disappeared towards the second half of the 16th c.
Peter
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Doug Lester
Location: Decatur, IL Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 167
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| Posted: Thu 15 May, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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Peter, from what I have read I do have to agree that the falchion and messer developed separately and at different times, though they do have one thing in common. That is funtion. They were use in close quarters combat in the general melee as a secondary weapon.
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Peter Grassmann
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| Posted: Fri 16 May, 2008 12:43 am Post subject: |
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That's right, but in terms of relationship, they have nothing to do with each other. This is important to know because there is no reason to confuse each other. The usage is nearly the same with all one-edged swords and sabres.
Peter
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This is a standard topic