[Rodolfo Martínez]

Hello guys,
I recently could wach For a few Dollars More, and Van Cleef´s greatcoat caught my attention.
Do you know if Greatcoats with shoulder capes were used for military purposes like in the North American Civil War, but in other places like Europe or Russia?

Thanks.

[B. Fulton]

While I can't think of a specific army's example I know the general style was popular for quite some time, and since most armies tend to copy each other (see the mass adoption of digital camo currently, or in Napoleonic times, the adoption of other country's headgear or weaponry like the lancers) it seems very likely.

I would look at cavalry units, they tended to be the flashy dressers of the time and something along these lines would suit them better than an infantryman I'd think.

[Jean-Carle Hudon]

I remember seeing similar coats for the Zouave regiments raised in Canada to defend the Papal state against Garibaldi's nationalists. I also think the style carried over with the french infantry into the trenches of WW1, but I don't have anything precise to refer to, but that is the general direction I would look into if I wanted to find similar greatcoats.

[Lafayette C Curtis]

They were definitely in use by the Napoleonic period at the latest--by both infantry and cavalry (or at least dragoons). Just do a Google search on Napoleonic uniforms or Napoleonic greatcoats and you'll find plenty of examples.

[J.T. Aliaga]

[Rodolfo Martínez]

[Paul Kenworthy]

Hi Rondolfo,

The coat in the picture is a US regulation issue enlisted infantryman's overcoat. It is made of sky-blue kersey wool, is single breasted, has an elbow-length cape, and a stand-up collar. The regulation mounted service (cavalry, mounted artillery, and horse artillery) enlisted overcoat is also made of sky-blue kersey, but is double breasted, has a wrist-length cape, and a stand-and-fall collar.

Officer's overcoats were of a style called a "boat cloak." They were dark blue, closed with black silk frogs over toggles, had black silk gallooning on the sleeves to indicate rank, and frequently had the cape lined in the branch color (black for staff and general officers, sky blue for infantry, red for artillery, and yellow for cavalry). There was more variation in the style of officer’s coats since they purchased them privately. Later in the American Civil War, the regulations allowed officers to wear the enlisted mounted services coat since distinctive displays of rank attracted sniper fire. This was the same reason the later regulations allowed small rank insignia on the collar in lieu of shoulder boards or epaulettes.

The Confederate regulations specified an overcoat, but no coats were ever procured or issued to those regulations. Confederate troops wore pre-war militia coats, privately procured coats, or captured coats. Obviously, wearing captured uniforms presented a problem and one general proposed dying them black before issuing them. Most Confederate troops were never issued an overcoat at all.

Federal uniforms were loosely based on contemporary French uniforms, but caped overcoats had gone out of fashion in the French army by that time. They also occur occasional in civilian fashion, and in Great Britain in a form know as an Inverness. The Metropolitan Police in London wore caped overcoats in the 19th century, too. I’m going to check the reference to Canadians Zouaves in Papal service since French Zouaves were not issued overcoats. Zouaves and Turcos instead wore a distinctive hooded short cape called a talma.

Caped overcoats are a traditional military uniform in the United States. The US Military Academy adopted them in 1828 and cadets still wear them today. Following USMA’s lead, a number of military schools and academies use them too. That may explain why they remained in use in the US long after they went out of fashion in the rest of the world.

The US 1861 Regulations, including the uniform regulations, are on-line at Google books:

http://books.google.com/books?id=yQ1CAAAAIAAJ...egulations

Best Regards,

Paul

[Rodolfo Martínez]

[Paul Kenworthy]

Rodolfo,

The Mill Creek photo you link to is a reproduction of a mounted service overcoat. You can see that the cape is longer than the cape on the infantry overcoat, coming down as far as the sleeve cuff. You can also see the difference in the collar. The infantry collar stands straight up; the mounted service collar folds down. Unfortunately, what you can’t see is the feature that you asked about because the cape is buttoned closed hiding the front of the coat. Double-breasted means the front of the coat overlaps so that there are two rows of buttons. The infantry coat has a single row of buttons down the middle of the front; the mounted coat has two parallel rows of buttons, one on the right and one on the left.

For civilians, the two most popular caped overcoats in England were the Inverness and the Ulster. Technically the Inverness doesn’t have a cape. What appears to be a cape are actually very large sleeves. Here is a link to an English fashion plate from 1893. The gentleman in the bottom row, second from left is wearing an Inverness:

http://costumes.org/HISTORY/victorian/1893cut...a_ads5.jpg

The Ulster was named for the Ulster Overcoat Company of Belfast, Ireland which made a loose overcoat with a cape. It was made famous worldwide when Arthur Conan Doyle decided to outfit his popular detective Sherlock Holmes in one. A “deer stalker” hunting hat, Ulster coat, and large calabash pipe constituted his signature look. Here is a link to a photo of the Sherlock Holmes statue in London:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Estatua_de...ondres.jpg

Here is a link to a fashion plate from 1893 showing a gentleman (on the right) wearing a caped overcoat like an Ulster. You can see just below the cape that the coat is double-breasted because there are two buttons side by side:

http://costumes.org/HISTORY/victorian/1893cut..._ads14.jpg

Here is a link to a 1903 ad for an Ulster overcoat:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ulsterovercoat_jan1903.jpg

Hope all that helps.

Best Regards,

Paul

[Rodolfo Martínez]

Thank you very much.
So, Ulster are mostly civilian and greatcoats of the previously shown configuration is for cavalry troops? Excellent.

So What do you think Van Cleef is wearing here?

http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dtrcleeflh4.jpg

Thanks.

[Paul Kenworthy]

Rodolfo,

It's a little tough to tell, but it looks like an Ulster to me. It almost looks like it has patch pockets on the front. Military coats in the 19th century rarely had visible pockets

Best Regards,

Paul

[Lafayette C Curtis]

Just to add to the mass of useful information already here, the Napoleon Series's index of articles on military organization during the Napoleonic Wars:

http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/c_organization.html

has some pages that describe and/or depict Napoleonic Wars military greatcoats in various levels of detail, such as

Greatcoats of the Minor German States 1808-1812 (detailed table of features, but no pictures)

Uniform of the Grenadiers-á-Pied de la Garde: 1810-1815 - clothing (includes description and pictures of a Grenadier greatcoat)

Dutch 2nd Cuirassiers, 1807-1808

Cavalry of the Bavarian Army 1800-1805

Cavalry of the Bavarian Army 1814-1815

Infantry of the Bavarian Army 1806

[Rodolfo Martínez]

Thanks for the information guys.

Lafayette:
http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organ...tler2.html
Isn´t the Oficer wearing a gratcoat?
Do you know if those chevaux legers had something to do with the french cavalry model? (Those soldiers who asisted gendarmes in battle)

Thanks.

[Lafayette C Curtis]