Ottoman Kiliç, 18th Century -- myArmoury.com

Shahril Dzulkifli · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2008 8:27 am Post subject: Ottoman Kiliç, 18th Century

What do I have here is a rare 18th century Turkish sword (Scimitar or Kiliç, it depends on how you call it) which dates back to the days of the Ottoman Empire with a heavy curved single-edged blade with two fullers. The hilt consists of horn grip-scales rising to a bulbous pommel that is enclosed by brass straps engraved with foliate, a brass crossguard with faced bud quillons. A leather-bound and stitched with spiral brass wire wooden scabbard mounted with a brass locket, chape, and central mount with its carrying rope belt. Condition: Minor wear and pitting, split on the joint of the chape, cracks in the horn hilt, otherwise in good condition. The overall length of the sword in the scabbard is 96cm (36 3/4 in).
Your comments are welcome.

Ken Speed · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2008 11:14 am Post subject:

Shahril,

What a beautiful sword! Is it yours? Clearly it is a dress or parade sword, do you have anything which shows what the individual wearing it would have looked like in full regalia?

Ken Speed

Morgan Butler · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2008 11:24 am Post subject:

Indeed! It is beautiful! What is the weight in pounds and ounces?

Jonathan Hopkins · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2008 11:37 am Post subject:

Ken Speed · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2008 12:17 pm Post subject:

Jonathan,

Really? You won't get an argument from me. I saw all the tassels and brass and thought it was "dressed up". I have to agree the blade looks like it could be as businesslike as you could ask . I'd still like to see what the individual who wore that looked like when wearing it, must have been quite a sight!

Ken Speed

Jonathan Hopkins · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2008 12:24 pm Post subject:

Sometimes it is hard to believe that something so flashy would be used in battle, but that is the 18th century for you! Happy

Jonathan

J. D. Carter · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject:

Shahril

Would it be possible for you to provide a link where there are photo's from other angles or is that photo the only 1 listed?

You certainly find some beautiful antiques. Thank you for sharing them with us.

Morgan Butler · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2008 1:26 pm Post subject:

Thats what I like about 18th cen. weapons! It is a beautiful sword but looks totally battle worthy to me. When you think about it , it's really a rather simple no-nonsense design. Just bright and shiny. Just put a knuckle guard on it and it would look like a napoleonic sabre.

Ken Speed · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2008 2:04 pm Post subject:

All,

Is that a left handed scabbard? In the photo it looks like we're seeing the sewn seam of the leather covering, what little isn't covered with brass Big Grin

If you're right handed you'd wear the sword on your left side to draw it, right? If you did that with this scabbard the seam would show.

AHA! Now all we have to do is find out how many 18th century Ottoman Turks were left handed and their names and we'll know who owned the sword! Piece of Cake! Laughing Out Loud

Ken Speed

Shahril Dzulkifli · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2008 5:18 pm Post subject: Ottoman Kiliç, 18th Century

For more information on this Turkish sword go to this page -
http://www.antiques-arms.com/catalog/sold-ant...-1875.html

Jeff Demetrick · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject:

I don't know guys? At best that is a European 19th century blade as is the brass quillons and remounted grip scales. The hilt band and scabbard are new.

Just my 2 cents.
Jeff

Ken Speed · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject:

Hi Guys,

Well, on the strength of the other pictures of the sword I would say that while it COULD have been used in battle it doesn't look like it ever was.

What is that hideous stuff that you can see in the picture where you are looking up the blade at the crossguard? If it was pink I'd say that it looked like someone stuffed bubble gum in there. Its a shock, everything else on the sword is practically pristine, it is pristine when you consider how old it is and then you look at that one picture and its like the sword has mange or something.

ken Speed

Sa'ar Nudel · Posted: Wed 05 Mar, 2008 5:33 am Post subject:

First of all, this is a shamshir, not a kilij. Kilij swords are distinct, having the same hilt but shorter, broader blade with a sharper curve and raised sharpened false edge (quill back). Because of the strong curvature its scabbard has a slit in the back, otherwise it is not possible to draw.
This sword is more likely to be of late 19th century era. The blade is possibly European trade of good quality, mount is Ottoman style. This kind of swords were popular with Arab men in Arab countries under the Ottoman regime, and Egypt. As a matter of fact, it is rather plain and battle intended, as dress swords of Turkish taste were much more embellished.
It has been extensively restored, the weird stuff under the guard is a resin, used to affix the fittings. The resin had been painted in gold recently. The long cord with tassels is a baldric for carrying the sword across the body with edge up (katana-like), so it is for a right-hand user. See the pic below, taken at 1934 in pre-state Israel.

Ian Hutchison · Posted: Wed 05 Mar, 2008 6:10 am Post subject:

Ken Speed · Posted: Wed 05 Mar, 2008 6:37 am Post subject:

Sa'ar

Thanks for the information, always happy to learn something that's one of the reasons I'm here. The photograph helps a lot in putting the sword in context. If this one is as you said, "fairly plain" the ornate ones must be something special to see.

Ken Speed

Sa'ar Nudel · Posted: Wed 05 Mar, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject:

Shahril Dzulkifli · Posted: Fri 25 Apr, 2008 4:01 am Post subject: Ottoman Kiliç, 18th Century

Here is a detail of the kiliç's hilt. Note the crack.

Kelly Powell · Posted: Fri 25 Apr, 2008 5:22 am Post subject:

Where is the point of balance on this sword? While I have allways been a advocate of single edge blades, I do not like some of the sabres and some of the styles of northren india, pakistan and to really stretch, turkey, along with persian and arabic styles ....I do not like swords that are difficult to wield dismounted....Just as i dislike some of the western style cav sabres. Beautiful blade, And please do not think I am scorning it or you sir.....and I am fully ready to eat crow if this blade is as lively dismounted as mounted.

Shahril Dzulkifli · Posted: Mon 28 Apr, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject: Ottoman Kiliç, 18th Century

This sword's point of balance? Hmm....maybe that's a tough question, Kelly. I am no expert on all swords' points of balance.

Shayan G · Posted: Mon 28 Apr, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject:

Luckily expertise is not required. Try to balance the blade, and measure at what distance from the crossguard it achieves perfect balance without help.

As regards the Western half of Asia's sword blades, they have good or bad balance depending on the saber/shamshir/kilic/pala/tulwar/pulwar/shashka/szabla you use. And some are for cavalry, some for infantry, it again depends on the owner and smith. They're too varied to generalize about comfortably!

Here's a great introductory thread on it:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=81

Hope that helps!