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C. Gadda





Joined: 20 Aug 2007

Posts: 135

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2009 8:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Myles Mulkey wrote:
Artis Aboltins wrote:
You can always go for "angle-grinder forging" as we call it there - meaning you essentially grind off the exces metal from the bar of apropriate size. It should work for the eyebrows, not sure if it would for the crest.

Possibly, but I believe the originals are hollow with a wooden base (don't quote me on that). The problem I ran into last time was getting the correct curve out of a hollow piece. It just sort of crimps up on you. Still, They don't have to be hollow since I'm more or less going for the look rather than a historical reproduction. And I don't have an angle grinder, but I know where they sell them! Laughing Out Loud At least they're not really expensive. Where could I get some brass stock thick enough for the crest?


Your statements in this and the post afterwards are spot on. The crest is indeed in two (or more) pieces, with a hollow "body" and a separately attached rail, and would have had a wood "filler" for added durability.

I have actually made a crest "body" through a series of dishing operations, and then added a separate rail. It is time consuming but it can be done. Raising would also do the trick. I'm not sure if the originals were raised/dished or cast; I suspect the latter.

You could try to salvage your earlier attempt by slowly working out the crimps, but this assumes you have the proper tools. I've got a variety of hammers and a small ball stake I made to get into the inside of a piece like this.
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Myles Mulkey





Joined: 31 Jul 2008

Posts: 250

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2009 8:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

C. Gadda wrote:
Myles Mulkey wrote:
Artis Aboltins wrote:
You can always go for "angle-grinder forging" as we call it there - meaning you essentially grind off the exces metal from the bar of apropriate size. It should work for the eyebrows, not sure if it would for the crest.

Possibly, but I believe the originals are hollow with a wooden base (don't quote me on that). The problem I ran into last time was getting the correct curve out of a hollow piece. It just sort of crimps up on you. Still, They don't have to be hollow since I'm more or less going for the look rather than a historical reproduction. And I don't have an angle grinder, but I know where they sell them! Laughing Out Loud At least they're not really expensive. Where could I get some brass stock thick enough for the crest?


Your statements in this and the post afterwards are spot on. The crest is indeed in two (or more) pieces, with a hollow "body" and a separately attached rail, and would have had a wood "filler" for added durability.

I have actually made a crest "body" through a series of dishing operations, and then added a separate rail. It is time consuming but it can be done. Raising would also do the trick. I'm not sure if the originals were raised/dished or cast; I suspect the latter.

You could try to salvage your earlier attempt by slowly working out the crimps, but this assumes you have the proper tools. I've got a variety of hammers and a small ball stake I made to get into the inside of a piece like this.

Thanks Mr Gadda! You've given me some great info over the course of this thread. I'll probably just start all over again with new materials when I find some. By the way, how is the rail attached to the rest of the crest?
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Mikael Ranelius




Location: Sweden
Joined: 06 Mar 2007

Posts: 252

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2009 12:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Myles Mulkey wrote:
Sorry to bring up this post after so long, but I really can't get enough of the Vendel Period stuff and I think this is the best thread on it so far.
My question is, what kind of runes would be in use during the Vendel Period? I know the Anglo-Saxon Futhork would probably be in use in England, but what about Sweden? Would the Younger Futhark have been developed yet, would the Elder Futhark still be in use, or would a slight combination of the two be used? Let me know what you guys think or if there's any info out there for me to check out. Thanks.


They seem to have used a kind of transitional writing-style that is evident in some of the few rune-stones dating back to that period, such as the Björketorp Stone, Stentoften Stone and Istaby Stone.
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C. Gadda





Joined: 20 Aug 2007

Posts: 135

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2009 1:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:

Thanks Mr Gadda! You've given me some great info over the course of this thread. I'll probably just start all over again with new materials when I find some. By the way, how is the rail attached to the rest of the crest?


Glad to be of service!

W.R.T. the attachment of the rail, I simply riveted mine using 18ga. solid brass pins that had been annealed and cut to shape. I *think* the same approach was taken back in the Vendel period, but I need to wade through my notes and partial translations to see if that is indeed correct.
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Myles Mulkey





Joined: 31 Jul 2008

Posts: 250

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2009 3:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mikael Ranelius wrote:
Myles Mulkey wrote:
Sorry to bring up this post after so long, but I really can't get enough of the Vendel Period stuff and I think this is the best thread on it so far.
My question is, what kind of runes would be in use during the Vendel Period? I know the Anglo-Saxon Futhork would probably be in use in England, but what about Sweden? Would the Younger Futhark have been developed yet, would the Elder Futhark still be in use, or would a slight combination of the two be used? Let me know what you guys think or if there's any info out there for me to check out. Thanks.


They seem to have used a kind of transitional writing-style that is evident in some of the few rune-stones dating back to that period, such as the Björketorp Stone, Stentoften Stone and Istaby Stone.

Excellent! I'll be checking these stone inscriptions to see just which runes were in use. Thanks Mikael.

C. Gadda wrote:
Glad to be of service!

W.R.T. the attachment of the rail, I simply riveted mine using 18ga. solid brass pins that had been annealed and cut to shape. I *think* the same approach was taken back in the Vendel period, but I need to wade through my notes and partial translations to see if that is indeed correct.

Good enough for me! Mind me asking where you get your brass for the crest base and rail?
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Myles Mulkey





Joined: 31 Jul 2008

Posts: 250

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2009 5:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Based on wikipedia photos of the Bjorketorp and the Stentoften runestones & illustrations of the Istaby and Gummarp runestones, I made a rough chart of the Vendel Period Futhark. If there are any mistakes or if there's any questions, please let me know. Thanks to Mikael for directing me to period inscriptions. (Note: Characters with multiple variants are categorized according to frequency of occurrance, with the most frequent on top and variants on bottom.)


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C. Gadda





Joined: 20 Aug 2007

Posts: 135

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2009 7:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:

Good enough for me! Mind me asking where you get your brass for the crest base and rail?


Got my material at a metal supply/steelyard up in the San Fernando valley. Most steelyards will have brass, and even some chain stores like OSH. The rail was, if I recall correctly (this was over 10 years ago) a brass rod that I first bent to fit the curvature of the crest and then hammered into a rectagular shape.

Also, even if you cannot do metal casting yourself, you should see if there are any foundaries in your area. I use a local one a couple miles from me and just hand him the waxes and get the castings back. He does good work for pretty cheap.
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R D Moore




Location: Portland Oregon
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Jul, 2009 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Vendel period arms and clothing         Reply with quote

Bruce Tordoff wrote:
Hi guys,
here is a pic from a recent event we attended, a good selection of period helms for your viewing pleasure. Happy
From left to right: Wollaston by myself , Valsgarde 7 by Ivor Lawton , Valsgarde 6 by Grzegorz Kulig, Vendel 1 and generic Vendel style helm both by Ivor Lawton.


Does anyone know if Ivor is still in business? How can we contact him?
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Gallery/4774/



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"No man is entitled to the blessings of freedom unless he be vigilant in its preservation" ...Gen. Douglas Macarthur
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Myles Mulkey





Joined: 31 Jul 2008

Posts: 250

PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul, 2009 8:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not sure if Ivor is still selling or not. It would be a shame if he's not because his helms are stunning.

On an unrelated note, if anyone out there is, like me, interested in making your own helm, check out Raymond's Quiet Press for some Vendel crests, eyebrows, plates, etc. (Moderator, I don't mean to be advertising this site, I just thought it might be useful for some DIY. Remove if necessary. Thanks.)
I doub't I'll ever get to the quality that we've seen in this thread, but I'd be happy with a "working man's" version.
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C. Gadda





Joined: 20 Aug 2007

Posts: 135

PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2009 8:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Myles Mulkey wrote:
Not sure if Ivor is still selling or not. It would be a shame if he's not because his helms are stunning.

On an unrelated note, if anyone out there is, like me, interested in making your own helm, check out Raymond's Quiet Press for some Vendel crests, eyebrows, plates, etc. (Moderator, I don't mean to be advertising this site, I just thought it might be useful for some DIY. Remove if necessary. Thanks.)
I doub't I'll ever get to the quality that we've seen in this thread, but I'd be happy with a "working man's" version.


I've bought quite a bit of Raymond's products, and they are very good. Just an FYI, I use his "pressblech" decorative plates as dies to stamp out my own period correct foils out of brass shim material (something in the range of .001 - .005 thickness if I recall correctly).

Keep in mind, though, that Raymond's pieces are designed to be placed on helmets intended for taking a SCA-style beating, and as such are much more robust than historical pieces.
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Matthew Bunker




Location: Somerset UK
Joined: 02 Apr 2009

Posts: 483

PostPosted: Wed 15 Jul, 2009 4:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Myles Mulkey wrote:
Not sure if Ivor is still selling or not. It would be a shame if he's not because his helms are stunning.

.


Ivor moved to Germany some time ago and dropped off the map completely. Apparently he's resurfaced recently on Facebook.

"If a Greek can do it, two Englishman certainly can !"
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Paul Mortimer




Location: England, Essex
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Wed 22 Jul, 2009 12:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thought that it could be interesting to get some reaction from my latest project. I had to find a way to use Dave Roper's excellent reproduction shoulder clasps with the rest of my SH gear. It seems that they did form part of a two piece garment with a distinct back and front. I did think about cloaks but for a whole host of reasons I do not believe that the clasps were used with such an item of clothing.
I tried thick vegetable tan leather but had real problems mounting the clasps - they have very small staples at the back. They could have been mounted on leather and I am not dismissing the possibility.
I came up with a linen backplate and breastplate. Each consists of ten layers of linen which I have quilted, by hand, took me ages. No glue involved. In the picture I am wearing the clothing over mail, but it could be worn over a simple tunic. However, the important thing is that it works, is practical and doesn't look too bad (I hope). I know it looks a bit like the picture from the Osprey book but I don't have a problem with that.
I know that many objections may be raised about linen as armour, etc, but the clasps went on something and there are remains of considerable amounts of textiles, leather and mail within the Mound 1 burial.

Cheers,

Paul



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Ville Vinje




Location: Uppsala
Joined: 20 Apr 2006

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PostPosted: Wed 22 Jul, 2009 8:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Historical or not, it sure looks good Paul!

The color looks great and feel right to. Linen is extremly hard to dye but pastels still works ok.

Good work.

/Ville
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Paul Mortimer




Location: England, Essex
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PostPosted: Wed 22 Jul, 2009 9:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Ville. It is not really as pink as it appears in the picture. I didn't die the linen, I painted it with some natural earth pigments and then beeswaxed the whole thing.

I'm not sure how it will behave in the rain, we will see.

Paul
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Hadrian Coffin
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, England
Joined: 03 Apr 2008

Posts: 400

PostPosted: Wed 22 Jul, 2009 9:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Reminds me a bit of Cu Chulainns cneslenti...
“…twenty-seven tunics [cneslenti] worn next to his skin, waxed, board like, compact, which were bound with strings and ropes and thongs close to his fair skin…"
Looks nice!
Regards,
Hadrian
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Myles Mulkey





Joined: 31 Jul 2008

Posts: 250

PostPosted: Fri 24 Jul, 2009 9:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looks wonderful Paul! Even better than the Osprey interpretation in my opinion.
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Sat 25 Jul, 2009 1:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Certainly looks good, and is an interesting interpretation of the finds. Would be interesting to perform some tests to see how resilent to various weapons it is, but I doubt that Paul will agree to stand still while we whack at him with various weapons, even for the sake of science Happy
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Paul Mortimer




Location: England, Essex
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PostPosted: Thu 30 Jul, 2009 10:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the kind comments.
Interesting comment about Cu Chulainns cneslenti -- the separate skins could easily be different layers....

I don't think that I will take up your suggestion Artis. I do plan to make some sections of the layers of linen and try them with various weapons. I have already found that if the linen is glued (mine isn't) the linen is much more resilient to blows.

Here is a closer picture taken last Saturday by my friends Alex and Katy.

Cheers,
Paul



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Hadrian Coffin
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, England
Joined: 03 Apr 2008

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PostPosted: Thu 30 Jul, 2009 4:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,
The cneslenti does seem to be a layered garment, but it seems to be made of linen rather than skin. Early translations described it as being twenty-seven layers of leather, further research seems to indicate that -lenti means linen rather than leather/skin. Interestingly Cu Chulainn wore another leather garment over his cneslenti, a cathchriss of leather. The cneslenti seems that it would only have reached his waist (like yours does), because on his lower body he put on a silk apron and a leather apron.
“…twenty-seven tunics [cneslenti] worn next to his skin, waxed, board like, compact, which were bound with strings and ropes and thongs close to his fair skin…Over that outside he put his hero’s battle girdle [cathchriss] of hard leather, tough and tanned, made from the best part of seven ox-hides of yearlings, which covered him from the thin part of his side to the thick part of his arm-pit; he used to wear it to repel spears [gai] and points [rend] and darts [iaernn] and lances [sleg] and arrows [saiget], for they glanced from it as if they had struck against stone or rock or horn. Then he put on his apron [fuathbroic] of filmy silk with its border of variegated white gold, against the soft lower part of his body. Outside his apron of filmy silk he put on his dark apron [dond{f}uathbroic] of pliable brown leather made from the choicest part of four yearling ox-hides with his battle-girdle [cathchris] of cows’ skins about it.” (ibid., 11 2215ff)
I was wondering about the seax on your belt, are those rivits on the handle? If so are they based of of a specific example? I can not think of any seaxs in that size with rivit holes in the handle, I would be most intruiged if there is an example!
Best,
Hadrian
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Paul Mortimer




Location: England, Essex
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Fri 31 Jul, 2009 4:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Hadrian,
Thanks for the information on the armour.

They aren't rivet holes - they are just two decorative buttons, bronze surrounding carnelian. I am not sure if it is based on a specific find - the man I got it from has disappeared into the mists of time. The handle, blade and scabbard are certainly fairly typical of those found in southern England and the continent. The decoration may not be.

Cheers,

Paul
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