[Michael Curl]

Does anyone here know either:

1) How much a brigandine cuirass would weight
2) Was it flexible? Namely, could I bend against it like I would against mail? Or would it be rigid like plate?
3) Who makes it now?
4) How effective was it against thrust/cut, arrows, lance, etc.
5) How much would it have cost at the time.

Thank you very much.

[Steven H]

[Chad Arnow]

You may want to check out this thread: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=6733

[Leo Todeschini]

HI,

There was a thread recently that will also cover many aspects of this.

Weight - mine is a White Rose Apparel one and is in the the attic so I can't answer without some investigation, but heavier than a breast and back.

Flexible - mail is a cloth and so moves freely in any direction, a brig is made to flex a lot at the waist and a bit through the torso, pretty much like you do, so it is not nearly as flexible as mail, but moves where it needs to.

White Rose in the UK make very nice ones of many styles

Generally very effective, the plates are well fixed and tight so a stray thrust or shot is very unlikely to get through and because they are layered a direct thrust or shot has quite a bit of steel to go through. The semi ridgid construction also means it is effective at absobing energy so I suspect better than a single sheet of back or breast, but it is heavier and has some weak points.

Cost - smaller pieces of metal are cheaper than bigger, any scraps can be used for a brig as the sheets are quite small. so realtive to a back or breast the skill level requiired for fabrication is lower so the cost is lower, but it still has a quantity of metal in it so they would never be cheap. For a definitive answer I don't know, but wage rates changed little from the mid 15th to the mid 16th and a coat of plates (plated Jack) of 16th C construction which is in many ways similar, cost in the order of 16 shillings. Can't remember the reference but it has been lodged in my head for a long time.

I have a coat of plates shown on my site under 'armour'

[Michael Curl]

Thanks for the info Leo, this sounds like it was just a heavier and more flexible lorica segmentata. I would guess that this is weaker than beast and back because then the knights would have been wearing this. I also saw a show on weapons that made britain where they showed that a coat of plates can resist a charge with lance much better than mail.

[Dan Howard]

[Michael Curl]

How would you make mail lance proof? Would a simple 4-1 riveted do it? Or would you need a more advance pattern?

[Randall Moffett]

Michael,

We really do not know. All we do know as Dan was saying before is that they existed. We have inventories and chronicles with accounts recording Jousting hauberks or the like. De Joinville's Chronicle comes to mind in one section he uses a jousting hauberk to ward off an arrowstorm. AS to how they were made.... there are loads of possible manners but we cannot be sure as no record states what makes them so or any existant I know of. Perhaps thicker wire 4 in 1, perhaps normal thickness of wire but smaller links 4 in 1, perhaps 6 in 1, double layers of mail, perhaps a mixture of them, the possibilities are close to infinite. Also keep in mind because something is intended to protect you nothing is invincible, though there are plenty of accounts of such hauberks saving peoples lives.

The Weapons that Made Britain is ok but I'd not rely too much on their results. I doubt the testing of the COP was all that accurate either... plate thickness, hardness, etc. All guesswork I assume as they fail to say where the info came from.

AS far as brigs. Not all brigs are created equal. Some were light for less threatening situations while others were heavy, intended for the joust.

RPM

[M. Eversberg II]

If a cote of maille is lance proofed, it must be quite heavy. The Bayeux tapestry shows many maille-clad men being pierced by the lance, and several accounts in the 11th century confirm this.

M.

[Leo Todeschini]

I was involved in the Weapons that made Britain and from what I saw of its production values I would not use it as unbiased evidence produced by scientific rigour

[Kelly Powell]

What say you guys....A average cop would be around 35 pounds? I think that would be about right for a middle of the road all purpose jack for a average body froame....And you would want it to be a little stiff so as to absorb impact....As for lance proof maile......The maile may not get damaged but the chances are it's still going to ruin your day with impact trauma.....stove in ribs busted sternum and internal hemorraging etc,etc......Still Better then a foot of metal tipped wood driving through you and taking shreds of your nasty, dirty flea infested clothing with it.

[Randall Moffett]

Kelly,

When I can find it I will post it but I have some brig weights I think around here. I think 35 pounds for a brig or COP is much, much too high. If a breastplate for the field and backplate weight between maybe 10-15ish, maybe 20 pounds, then a brig or COP would not weight in more than twice that. No promises on the brig weights as I think they were in a book I no longer have access to but I think I would have written those down. My COP made of heavy weight steel of 18, 16 and 14 gauge (breastplate is 14, lower chest lames are 16 back-top plates are 16 and lower lames are 18) weight in at 6 pounds 5 ounces for the front and 5 pounds 7 ounces the back. It is modelled after the Kussnach COP with a modified top based off one from here in Soton. It covers just a little past my naval in the front so fovers a little less area than brigs but not 2/3 more weight worth of difference.

RPM