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Kelly Powell




Location: lawrence, kansas
Joined: 27 Feb 2008

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PostPosted: Mon 07 Apr, 2008 2:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My .02$ worth.....Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but in tourneys "foigning" (ie:: thrust) was considered , if not a foul, at least bad form....This was most likely because of the danger it presented....As the romans said "two inches will kill a man"....In real battle you would use whatever means you could to kill your opponent....But in tournaments where capture and ransom was the money maker they tried to limit the fatalities.
As for the more rounded points....lets say you have knocked your opponent off his feet....A good hard downword thrust even with this kind of point should be effective....I stabbed a uncured ham covered in mail and while it did not penetrate the maile, it did sink in a few inches....a sternum shot or to the throaght would be incapacitating if not fatal.
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Mon 07 Apr, 2008 3:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kelly Powell wrote:
My .02$ worth.....Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but in tourneys "foigning" (ie:: thrust) was considered , if not a foul, at least bad form....This was most likely because of the danger it presented....


I agree with your instincts. I studied this subtopic (texts by accepted authors either about the melee tournament or with several chapters devoted to directly related subjects) for about one year,and went so far as to try to catalogue causes of death while looking at geneology of knights available over the internet. There is not much readily available information to support tournament deaths of knights from puncture or stab wounds except accidental piercing of helm/eye areas by lances or splinters of lances. Wounds, when described, were typically referred to as "bruises." Deaths from these "bruises" seemed to take 2 days to 2 weeks (a few victims being described as surviving but mentally impaired for life afterwards.) I could not easily find any historical accounts of action and wounds with details until the end of the 12th century. Obvious implications of blunted or rebatied weapons begins to become convincing around the end of the 1st quarter of the 13th century.

As your own, and many others', experiments with reproduction swords and fair quality reproduction (4:1 weave?) mail shows, you can penetrate the most common form of mail in thrust with many forms of sword points to a degree that would be serious. Taken in proper context (who the statues were actually addressed to were the Esquires or squires, not the Grand Seignueres or primary competitors) there is no surviving rule that tells us knights fighting in melee tournament had swords rebated to the point of being harmless. Despite lack of written proof, all of the circumstances (criminal trials from as early as 1220's for one using a sharpened lance in joust, progression to Cuir Bouilee, etc.) shows a consistent pattern of avoiding sharpened thrusting tactics in tournaments.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!


Last edited by Jared Smith on Tue 08 Apr, 2008 3:17 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Greg Mele
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Location: Chicago, IL USA
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Apr, 2008 10:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Smith wrote:

So my question was not "Was the thrust used at all", but rather "Did an experienced fighter rely on the thrust as a primary means of attacking his opponent, through maille (and possibly gambeson) during this timeperiod". Such is why I am forced to discount I.33's impact, because it relates unarmoured combat, and the early Roman fighting, because of the differences in formations, and the use of cavalry.


The I.33 comment is a bit of a stretch, Sean, as we don't see much evidence that medieval combat is broken into civilian and warfare arts. Basically, it is all one art, with variations, depending on the environment. Bolognese sword and buckler, for example, can and was used against mean wearing partial armour, and we find iconography of men in light armour using similar sword and buckler wards.

Quote:

Greg, is there anyway you could dig up that email, and post a bit more about that?


I gave you the gist of the discussion. The email - from early '99 - was about the first occurrences of "great swords", Ewart mentioned the point as a side note. I'd recommend you run down the epic poem associated with the event.

I will add that you can see wall iconography in Italy (Palermo and Spoleto are the two I am thinking of) wherein mail clad figures are not only thrusting, but have slipped their fingers out of their mail mufflers to finger their cross! Fingering the cross seems to be a much earlier thing in Italy. I'm sorry I don't have the images to hand, but it gives you a lead. You might look in Nicolle's Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era, to see if they appear there. As with anything Nicolle writes, the text is trash, but the images stand for themselves.

Greg

Greg Mele
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Sean Smith





Joined: 31 Mar 2004

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PostPosted: Tue 08 Apr, 2008 12:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the leads, Greg. Part of the reason for "dismissing" I.33 is that some of the attacks that are illustrated are only designed for people out of armour, and when wearing maille, they are not as effective. Not so much as a civilian/military, but more un-armoured/armoured.
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Tue 08 Apr, 2008 3:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg Mele wrote:
I have an old email from the late Ewart Oakeshott where he mentions the use of both "great swords" and a reliance on the thrust, being described in the account of a fight outside the town of Civitate in Southern Italy, in (I think) 1158 between the famous Robert Guiscard de Hauteville and his Normans and a papal army. This is the same fight where William of Apulia's recounting discusses the Germans taking their swords up in two hands. Greg


He tells this story in one his books as well (can't remember if its 'Archeology' or 'Chivalry'.) The story went that some mercenaries (I thought they were Germans) had big XIIIs and almost complete plate armor, and the mounted troops on the other side (Normans I suppose since they spoke French) had a big problem until they put out the call 'stab them in the armpits, lads', or something to that effect. I recall Oakeshott speculated that the stabbing was probably being done by type XIVs, which might put this slightly after the XI-XII sword period in question.

Another anecdote he told was the first hand account of a crusader who charged and killed a Saracen by crouching his sword 'in the manner of a lance'. But again I cannot recall which crusade or exactly which book.

They're in there though...it's all in Oakeshott.
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Tue 08 Apr, 2008 4:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The comparatively broad, long types of the high middle ages would obviously suggest that the cut was the prefered mode of attack. However, this does in no way mean that you could not thrust with these swords.
In an environment where heavy armour was not standard issue, a thrust with a broad blade would actually cause more damage that narrow blade, in the same fashion that hunting spears and arrows where generally broad bladed.
Specialized thrusting blades only become necessary when dealing with heavy armour.

While mail does give protection against stabs, it does not provide sufficient protection from blunt trauma, spears and daggers to the armpits to warrant the development of specialized weapon to deal with it. (apparently)

Another major issue when it comes to the design of sword is shield use. In the high middle ages, large shields would be pretty much standard issue. And it is a lot easier to get around a shield with cuts than thrusts.

Once plate armour, especially greaves and poleyons, and helmets that cover the side of the head, becomes common the cuts are no longer effective. Which promts the development of specialized weapons for defeating armour.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Steven H




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PostPosted: Tue 08 Apr, 2008 4:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Elling Polden wrote:


Another major issue when it comes to the design of sword is shield use. In the high middle ages, large shields would be pretty much standard issue. And it is a lot easier to get around a shield with cuts than thrusts.


I am curious about this comment. Talhoffers instruction on sword and large shield largely contradicts this, as does my own fencing experience. Can you elaborate?

Cheers,
Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Apr, 2008 2:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
Greg Mele wrote:
I have an old email from the late Ewart Oakeshott where he mentions the use of both "great swords" and a reliance on the thrust, being described in the account of a fight outside the town of Civitate in Southern Italy, in (I think) 1158 between the famous Robert Guiscard de Hauteville and his Normans and a papal army. This is the same fight where William of Apulia's recounting discusses the Germans taking their swords up in two hands. Greg


He tells this story in one his books as well (can't remember if its 'Archeology' or 'Chivalry'.) The story went that some mercenaries (I thought they were Germans) had big XIIIs and almost complete plate armor, and the mounted troops on the other side (Normans I suppose since they spoke French) had a big problem until they put out the call 'stab them in the armpits, lads', or something to that effect. I recall Oakeshott speculated that the stabbing was probably being done by type XIVs, which might put this slightly after the XI-XII sword period in question.

Another anecdote he told was the first hand account of a crusader who charged and killed a Saracen by crouching his sword 'in the manner of a lance'. But again I cannot recall which crusade or exactly which book.

They're in there though...it's all in Oakeshott.


First battle you are talking about is the battle of Benevento, 1266, Manfred, German Emperor vs French, and the other is Joinville in the seventh crusade.
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Sean Smith





Joined: 31 Mar 2004

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PostPosted: Wed 09 Apr, 2008 11:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for the extra documentation, Luka. Those are two books I keep meaning to get my hands on, when I get some spare cash, and find them "on sale".
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James Nordstrom




Location: Sacramento, CA
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PostPosted: Thu 10 Apr, 2008 10:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M. Eversberg II wrote:
Medieval warriors where not cross-eyed idiots. They knew they could stab with their weapon, and did where appropriate.

M.


No they didn't. I have it on good authority that Medieval warriors where narrowed eyed beastly men who could only cut from the shoulder with large looping cuts.

Everyone knows that thrusts were first used by the Italian gentry first and spread through Europe after 1400.

Laughing Out Loud
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Thu 10 Apr, 2008 11:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steven H wrote:
Elling Polden wrote:


Another major issue when it comes to the design of sword is shield use. In the high middle ages, large shields would be pretty much standard issue. And it is a lot easier to get around a shield with cuts than thrusts.


I am curious about this comment. Talhoffers instruction on sword and large shield largely contradicts this, as does my own fencing experience. Can you elaborate?


Maybe Elling is referring to the Sturzhau or a similar action that wraps over the opponent's shield? I have to agree with you, though, that the thrust actually feels to be the more instinctive blow when you're crouching behind a shield and that it is perfectly capable of getting around the defense of a shield when properly used.
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Sean Smith





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PostPosted: Sun 13 Apr, 2008 8:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Depends on the size and shape of the shield. I fight with a large flat-topped kite (in an SCA context) and when held across my body as semi-indicated by paintings and tapestries (covering chin down), I am nigh-invulnerable to most thrusts (including spears, unless 3 or more decide to gang up on me). I also tend to lose almost all of my lines of attacks except for overhanded thrusts/flat snaps (that part about the shield and sword occupying the same space at the same time adn the universe exploding thing). Seeing as how the imagery also has those guys on horses, I feel confident in suggesting they may have simply ridden down their opponents, while concentrating more on defense with the shield.
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