[Michael Curl]

I was looking at the massive amount of samurai vs knights topics. Yes yes, I know they are stupidly unrealistic, but I'm just going to ask a simple question that would set my mind to rest.

What is the ability of a katana to thrust? I would assume that it would be minimal, but some have argued otherwise. Could you for example, thrust with the katana with blade down, as I have heard that the only thrust possible requires facing the blade up, so that the motion of the hand + weight of the blade would drive the point into the target.

Also, can a katana thrust through mail? This has always been my take on the S vs. K topic, that japanese weaponry simply is not meant/able to penetrate/sheer/hammer plate or mail.

[Anders Backlund]

I'm no expert on Japanese swords, so don't quote me on this, but from what I've heard the katana is a decent thruster, though the tip is designed for cutting rather then thrusting.

I'm pretty sure there were kenjutsu schools with advanced thrusting techniques, anyway. So I wouldn't call it a bad thrusting sword, just not designed for it.

[Gary A. Chelette]

I agree, it's not the best, but it's a strong tip. With enough force, it can go through chain and do damage.

[Mike Lee]

Although a Katana had a good edge, the tip is still fairly wide - surely you'd need something a little more 'pointy' for an effective thrust through plate or mail?

If you attempted to thrust a Katana through mail wouldn't the wide point 'choke' once it had penetrated a short distance as the force would be dissapated by the wide contact area?

Also, as the blade is curved, would there be sideways shift to the thrust negating some of the force?

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

There are some observations on a katana in Michael Edelson's Riveted Maille and Padded Jack Tests. I don't think he tried to thrust through mail with it, but it still shows how devastating the thrust can be with a katana against a jack...

The other thing I gather from this thread is that the very accute tips can go through mail without bursting a ring, something the katana cannot really do. But you'd still get a pretty good blunt punch, so it does not mean such attacks could be ignored completely...

Against plate, I don't think that any sword, japanese or not, can go through the plate itself in a fighting situation. The thrust would glance on the surface. The tactic is to thrust through the gaps, which brings us back to piercing mail, or possibly even something lighter.

Obviously the katana has never been designed to deal with European armours, so it's quite likely that it's not the ideal design against these... But the thrust is known in kenjutsu (even in kendo), of course, and the curvature is not such a hindrance. It's just that the techniques are adapted to it. I don't quite understand the question of blade up and blade down, but I know of thrusting techniques with the edge up, down, right, left, pretty much anything required

[Sammy Jackson]

hey everyones. a katana can cut and pierce chain mail. ive done it. allthough give me a strong matal pen and i could probably do it with that.

it was a fun test. messed up the egde of the sword though. ive even pierced 16 gauge plate, with an atrim. it took all my force and the target was stationary, but dang it. went through nearly an inch.

[Jared Smith]

I ran across of photo of a current day Japanese maker piercing the bottom of your typical folding steel chair with one of his katanas. It is possible to pierce (endless arguements about how far, etc., but in this case there was a foot of blade sticking through the other side of the chair seat) thin gage metals as long as there is a sharp point to do the shearing and good metallurgy/ heat treating.

[Ken Speed]

All,


Of course a katana can pierce! Actually I think in Japanese it would be called "tsuki" and pronounced "ski" and translates loosely as stab or thrust. Don't forget the katana was primarily a two handed weapon; this gave cuts and thrusts more strength but it also limited the reach of the thrust. There were even schools of swordsmanship where one of their specialty techniques was a quick little slice that would cut off the opponents thumbs/fingers and make it impossible to hold their sword.



Ken Speed

[Michael Curl]

Obviously any sword can pierce, but my point is that, like has been said above, I'd think the point would chock off, so you'd just have to break the ring, and if it was riveted i'd think that would be considerably more difficult.

[Bennison N]

A Katana can thrust very well. It can both pierce through chainmail and plate, provided the gauge is not too thick. My own Katana has gone nicely, and structurally undamaged, through the passenger door of a 2004 Subaru Legacy station wagon, and the pushed-back bonnet and windshield of a 2000 Mini Cooper. It also has gone halfway into a solid 5cm (2") thick Radiata Pine door when thrust straight-ishly from roughly four feet away. It came back out all these times with ease.

So i say that Katana can both be used to thrust powerfully, and can penetrate thinner plate armour. I would say you would need to practice thrusting with a Katana for some time before you could fully utilize the potential, though.

[Michael Edelson]

[Ken Speed]

Hi Bennison,



You said, " My own Katana has gone nicely, and structurally undamaged, through the passenger door of a 2004 Subaru Legacy station wagon, and the pushed-back bonnet and windshield of a 2000 Mini Cooper. "

Yeah, I hate it when automobiles run amok.

Part of the equation is being ignored here, the guy doing the thrusting. Look sometime at the Japanese sword art practitioners, mostly the ones who started their art before WWII and you will see that they tend to run to a physical type. They will generally be small, quiet, friendly guys who smoke like chimneys and drink like there is no tomorrow and they will have forearms like Popeye. They developed that hand and arm strength and coordination through hours of practice with swords and wooden swords and they could probably thrust a katana into or through almost anything the steel could handle. I truly cannot imagine mail stopping them at all.


Ken Speed

[Bill Grandy]

There's a lot of generalizations going on here. First of all, the katana, just like the longsword, come in quite a bit of variation. Some thrust better, some cut better. I'm not an expert of Japanese Nihonto, so I'm not the best to describe this, but we should all consider that you can't lump all Japanese swords, from all time periods, into the same category and make sweeping statements.

Secondly, Michael's statements about European mail are definately true, and he's done some very good tests to back them up. Mail is incredibly resilient, and if a katana could easily shear through it, then the Romans would have figured out how to invent them long ago.

[Anders Backlund]

I just recalled, a few katana were double-edged, with more spear-like tips. Cold Steel makes two of them, I think:



Would these be better suited for thrusting, perhaps?

[Ben C.]

[William Knight]

Car doors =/= plate armour. To be more specific, the lack of work hardening and the rather flat surface make it much easier to pierce.

[Michael Edelson]

[Michael Curl]

Thank you all, really good information on the subject. I had no idea how hard it was to pierce mail. (as I've never done it), I thought an average thrust with a good stabbing sword would get ya through it.

[M. Eversberg II]

These things happen. It's likely because a lot of games depict maille as some sort of "crap" armor, that you quickly discard for pretty much anything else.

M.